***Movie Spoiler***
Would Christopher Nolan end a Batman movie on a dream? The more we reflect back on the new Batman movie, the more we think about the Nolan brothers pounding away at the clues. Did we need to hear the mechanic telling Fox that Bruce Wayne repaired the autopilot 6 months ago? Gordon discovering the Bat signal repaired? The pearl necklace missing from the Wayne estate? John Blake retrieving a bag prepared for him?
Christopher Nolan and Jonathan Nolan are clever screenwriters. They know how to encode messages through serving up crafty dialogue and showing powerful visuals. Why did the Nolan brothers emphasize on multiple clues? It is confusing to think the writers need to reveal the autopilot, pearl necklace, Bat signal, bag and John Blake's real name (Robin) to get their point across.
However, cranking out the clues is not the end of the trickery. We see Alfred at an Italian cafe. He acknowledges Bruce at a distant table. Selina is sitting across Bruce, wearing the exact pearl necklace that is missing from the Wayne Estate. Really? Do we need multiple clues to understand the obvious? The cafe scene is unnecessary unless it is intended as a trick to make you think Bruce is alive.
Showing these multiple clues in sequential order confirm the Nolan brothers are tricking most moviegoers into thinking the facts are there to prove Bruce Wayne is alive. Why not look at the Alfred cafe scene as a personal imagination, fantasy, hallucination, and even a dream? Bruce Wayne hallucinated in the pit. Alfred shared his cafe story with Bruce. It leaves the door open to enter another hallucination into plot. Does Christopher Nolan write simple scripts to explain everything to us? No.
The Dark Knight Rises is the last film of the Batman trilogy. Why can't the Batman movie feature an imagination? We already witnessed a hallucination and a fantasy. Adding a dream into the mix is plausible. Really think about the clues. Are you convinced that moviegoers require this many clues? Better yet, the multiple clues lead up to a cafe scene with Bruce sitting across Alfred. Cliche? Predictable? Brilliant?
The Nolan brothers are serving up the clues on purpose to make you think. The cafe ending scene is more than just an obvious confirmation to alert us that Bruce Wayne is alive because we see Selina with the pearl necklace sitting next to him. Even so, we debate that people think it is impossible for Alfred to dream about a woman he knows nothing about.
Are you convinced we can't dream about another person? If we dream about a person we never met, then it is deemed reality? Alfred probably crossed paths with Selina. He knows the pearl necklace went missing. Should the film play out like a fairy tale? The Dark Knight saves Gotham City. He is rewarded with a new life and his dream girl. That seems like a fantasy to me, especially since Alfred shares the cafe story - in the turning point - to convince Bruce he must give up on Batman to find happiness.
Commenters on this website are intelligent. Do you need the extra clues put in your face to make a decision that a person is alive? We mentioned this Batman movie is about fate, hope and fear. Are the Nolan brothers giving us hope that Bruce is alive? Revealing clue after clue to reach a conclusion in a cafe is too obvious.
You be the judge. Is Bruce Wayne dead or alive? Would Christopher Nolan, a complex mind, end a Batman movie on a dream? Feel free to chat about the topic.
How does Alfred not know Selina?
ReplyDeleteHe knows her...she was working as a maid at the Wayne Manor in the beginning of the film.
Alfred SAW Selina,talked to her and also mentioned her name.
Plus,Alfred saw a picture of her in the computer.
Alfred knows Selina and know that it was her who stole the pearl necklace from Bruce.
He also joked Bruce saying he had to invite her for a coffee.
That´s enough to me.
And Bruce never told him he recovered the necklace from Selina,so,for Alfred,the item is still missing.
So,Alfred KNOWS who Selina is,it explains why he was imagining her with Bruce and wraring the necklace because Selina stole from Bruce.
Hi Juliana,
DeletePeople debate me that this Batman movie is no Inception and Alfred can't dream about Selina because he does not know her well enough. They don't understand dream interpretation.
You remember the movie quite well. These are great points to disapprove statements suggesting that it is impossible for Alfred to be dreaming about Selina.
Showing Rachel is too obvious. We would automatically know the cafe scene is a dream. Nolan wants to make us think because nothing is ever easy to decipher in his movies.
You're definitely looking deep into the emotional structure, which is when screenwriters add multiple layers of emotion into the story.
I think most people will accept the clues. They usually say he is alive because he used autopilot. We read a few good autopilot explanations, albeit the majority are just stating he uses autopilot, the Bat signal is repaired, Bruce leaves a bag, Selina is wearing the pearls, and Alfred is incapable of dreaming in light of scene construction and point-of-view.
It is more compelling to execute this Alfred cafe as a dream rather pound out the clues like they are leading us into a trap. It is the same motivation behind the Hansel and Gretel story.
Excellent analysis! Thanks for contributing to the website. If I had the money, I would watch the movie again. I depend on the good plot details from moviegoers such as yourself. Thanks again.
You´re welcome. :)
DeleteAnd if I remember well,Batman said to Catwoman that he didn´t have autopilot.
My question is: Why he would lie to her?
So,did he plan his own death and meet Selina later?
I do not believe it.
I guess Batman was saying the truth,that he didn´t have autopilot.
When they said to Fox that Bruce had repaired the autopilot,it was 6 months ago and of course,it was not the same Bat that exploded along with the bomb.
To me, this was a "gotcha" from Nolan, to make us believe that Bruce may have survived the atomic blast.
I think that even using autopilot, he would not escape from the radiation of the bomb in time, and when there were only 5 seconds remaining it was clearly shown that Bruce was still inside the cockpit.
He did not eject.
The same thing about the Batsignal being fixed.
I have the same opinion as you,that could be anyone,not necessarily Bruce.
I would bet on John Blake. For me,he fixed the Batsignal. Or maybe Gordon. Or Selina Kyle.
Could be anyone.
As Bruce said: "Batman can be anyone".
What about the cafe scene, if I'm not mistaken, Bruce is sitting at the same table that the man who Alfred envisioned and that was not Bruce. Not in the same chair, but at the same table.
It's quite a coincidence.
And also, if I'm not mistaken, Selina was wearing the necklace at the Wayne Manor. And Alfred saw her and spoke to her.
Tomorrow I will watch the movie again and pay attention.
Well,I´m almost 100% convinced that Alfred was imagining Bruce with Selina at the cafe.
When I say these things to the people, they do not,can not see beyond what was shown on the screen ... they think that what they saw, is what happens,and period.
They completely reject the idea that Bruce may have actually died in the explosion.
Hi Juliana,
DeleteYou're thinking is in align with my interpretation of the ending. I agree the majority will downplay the ending because the top news sites convince people he survived.
A screenwriter who writes on Forbes seems to lack perception. If you read his article and comments, this is one person who is unwilling to consider any theories beyond the obvious.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2012/07/26/the-meaning-of-joseph-gordon-levitts-fate-in-the-dark-knight-rises-spoilers/
You're one of the rare commenters to analyze the last Batman movie in a different light. People think that Alfred must dream about someone he knows to identify with the dream or fantasy. Otherwise, a vague shot of Selina is enough to suggest Bruce Wayne is alive and this is reality.
When we sleep, we don't always dream about life as it plays out in reality. However, we can dream about people we know in natural disasters such as tsunamis, earthquakes, and end of the world events.
You will hear that if Alfred is dreaming, he must dream about another women or even Rachel. If we see Alfred dreaming about Rachel, then we know it is a dream because she is dead. Complex movies are not that straightforward with revealing an ending. With exception of M. Night Shayamalan movies, we are not treated to flashbacks.
Nolan is not using flashbacks to explain Bruce's actions between lifting off with the bomb to the clues provided prior to the cafe scene. The cafe ending plays out like his fantasy. If Selina is significant to the cafe scene, then we will see her front and center.
As you mentioned in the theory article, Selina is not wearing the pearl necklace. This eliminates one major clue that fuels the majority. I agree with you that "they do not, can not see beyond what was shown on the screen" as valid evidence to support mass influence.
People will believe in the media, refusing to question the news. Even so, people choose to believe a person convicted by the jury is automatically guilty. The entire The Fugitive movie is based on this notion that a court convicted Richard Kimble, so he is guilty of murdering his wife.
We get a buffet of clues, which the major characters have their moments. The Nolan brothers don't miss any character having their moment. I agree with you that Bruce died in the blast. The Dark Knight Rises is symbolism-driven to confront questions established in the setup.
Some moviegoers have no idea why Batman would take the fall for Harvey Dent and also serve up a quote to Gordon to reveal his identity. They search often to question whether the cafe scene is a dream and or a fantasy. They also look for find the identity of the woman next to Bruce. Therefore, we can suggest the ending is not as simple as so-called Bat experts claim are obvious clues complimented with a realistic cafe ending.
The Alfred cafe scene is open for discussion. Thanks again for providing detailed points. I appreciate your comments and your analysis.
And another thing that kind of bothers me. I think it's fine if we all have different disagreements, but the fact that you say people who think Bruce died are only looking at things that will support their argument, you do have to realize you're also doing the same for yourself. I'm getting this vibe that everytime you say that Batman fans who are in disagreement are narrow-minded, short-sighted, and not open to intelligent debating. Mind you, there are many people who are idiots, who blindly follow the trend, but there are some of us who are actually making a point.
Delete*wearing*
ReplyDeleteFinally people says he is alive! :D
ReplyDeleteSo far these discussions imply a master plan one way or another as opposed to an evolving plan. He may have told her there was no autopilot so that she could inform to everyone else that he was in the plane and could not get out. There would be little difficulty in divulging his survival to Selina later. The series of clues as to his survival is not so much to convince the audience but to lay the groundwork for future films, not necessarily done by Nolan. Now Fox can prepare new toys for Batman (or Robin?). If there must be controversy as to how it ended, then I suggest a Total Recall(original) type ending where there is no actual answer, it is written so that it can not be concluded either way.
ReplyDelete@Chris,
DeleteGood comment. We can look at the ending from multiple angles. We have the Bruce lives. Bruce dies, and the I don't know the truth.
People state that Bruce died. They believe in the series of clues thrown into their face. How many clues will average moviegoers need to know someone is alive? It is pointless to show Bruce sitting in the exact cafe with a grin that I made the jump to retirement.
Without a doubt, I believe Bruce Wayne is dead. It is not wrong to kill Bruce Wayne. Most are refusing to believe Bruce die. It is like denial in accepting death.
The Tale of Two Cities quote is powerful. Once a book reader dissects the book quite, they will understand the meaning of Bruce's life. Gordon never reveals to Blake the true identity of Batman.
Thanks for the comment.
Very simple. Batman tells selina kyle following her statement "fly it over the bay and eject" by stating he has no autopilot...this is the moment he decides that he will be a martyr by ignoring the fact that he does havw autopilot that he himself fixed 6months ago. Second..alfred says i had a fantasy and in that fantasy he pictured bruce with a wife and possibly children and then he knew he was truly happy...the last scene is bruce happy...he ended it the way he wanted it to end. Symbolism...not reality. Third...the gordon eulogy. Everyone and their mother remembers gordon's monologue at the end of dark knight. Noone payed attentiin to his reading in the eulogy. It is ready straight from a tale of two cities. Thr main character gives his life so paris can be better....hello???? Bottom line Nolan made a super hero movie in which he killed off the super hero...unprecedented. the studio is happy because 95 percent of the public was too stupid to realize it.
ReplyDelete@Jasonm921,
DeleteYour analysis is the best we've seen on the web. You provide simple explanations to show the embodiment of the movie. The one way you explain the ending makes perfect sense.
Alfred's fantasy is not of reality. Nolan is conveying to us that how he wants Bruce to be viewed as happy. The Gordon eulogy quotes The Tale of Two Cities. Most viewers never reviewed the book to understand the meaning.
Moviegoers are unable to fathom Bruce Wayne is dead. They will go to distance to fight, debate, and even insult another person for refusing to accept their theories.
Your comment is the best we've seen because you are decoding the encoded messages to show us the real truth. People only see what they want. They don't listen too well. Alfred shared his fantasy with Bruce. Gordon quotes a book with the same exact theme. In films, we don't have to see reality. We can communicate fantasies and imagery to imply happiness.
Your 95% reference is very accurate. Most viewers reject any notion that Bruce died. One commenter on another outside TDKR thread criticized one of our theory articles, indicating that our ideas are flawed. Another commenter told us to essentially commit suicide for writing that Bruce dies.
The emotions are strong. I mentioned the last character in Tale of Two Cities finding meaning prior to giving his life. Bruce finally discovered what he must do to save Gotham.
Very good comment. Thanks again.
Yes, I noticed the quote from "Tale of 2 Cities." I can imagine Gordon read the book, and believed Batman's sacrifice would be the same as the hero, Carton, in the book. Don't forget, at the end of the novel, Carton manages to switch places with the character Charles Darnay as Darnay faces execution.
DeleteAlfred once told Bruce that he's afraid that once Bruce becomes Batman, he will try to die on purpose. Alfred essentially wanted Batman to symbolically die (never return), and wanted Bruce to move on. Bruce was struggling with this dual identity, while Alfred made it clear that the only way to live is to be Bruce, not Batman.
I think this is the biggest theme that people are missing. They are assuming Batman and Bruce are always one. The recurrent theme is that it has always been a struggle for both identities to stay together. Alfred stated in many ways that Batman can do nothing but bring darkness and sadness, and that it will never end. Alfred is trying to separate Bruce from Batman consistently.
I interpret the ending as the ultimate decision to give up being Batman so that Bruce can live, much like what Carton did for Darney.
@KJpsych,
DeleteWelcome back. You definitely put up a good argument each and every time. If the majority choose to believe Bruce died, your theories provide a blueprint to explain Bruce's internal motivation.
Since we last discussed the ending, a few commenters mentioned the "no autopilot" reference Batman made to Selina. We hear this clue. Then, the clue is later reiterated again with Fox discovering the repair. How long after the atomic blast did Fox discover the repair?
Was it revealed a week, month, two months, or several months later? The 6 months is more important to establish the timeline. Depending on the autopilot revelation, emphasizing on 6 months is important. Also, the time of the revelation pinpoints the exact moment the autopilot is repaired. What is the reason "no autopilot" is mentioned unless it makes the autopilot function an important clue.
Batman is possibly withholding his knowledge of autopilot to make his sacrifice appear legendary. Would you shoot nukes at an asteroid? Or would you fly into the center of an asteroid to ensure it is destroyed?
Batman would not appear as a hero if he put his hope in the Bat blowing down the buildings and carrying the bomb out to sea. If Batman ejects to imitate Selina's plan, he would have some explaining to do.
We are not given exposition to see the truth. The cafe ending is obscure. We see many clues. Do we need confirmation with a cafe scene showing us Bruce from Alfred's POV? We don't need a flashback to see how the atomic scene plays out. The previous scenes are not as obvious as the clues and cafe ending. It still leads me to believe the legend is actually ending.
I agree with the Tale of Two Cities ending in switching places. This is an important them. Wasn't Gordon referring to the Tale of Two Cities to compare Batman and Bruce's life in a subtle but respectful way?
Gordon never admits to Blake the actual person who saves Gotham. He mentions Batman. Would it make sense for Gordon to say that "I know who saved us" with a appreciative look?
I will read your other comments soon. Thanks again for contributing.
The complicated flying that Batman had to do in the city, was done by Batman, yes. The rest of the journey, which was basically one-way journey out to sea, can easily be taken care of by the auto-pilot. If you're doubting the capabilities of the auto-pilot, well, Batman believed in it enough to install it. Why would he install something he doesn't have confidence in to do a simple task? If it was all manoeuvring through obstacles I would understand, but it wasn't.
Delete"Batman is possibly withholding his knowledge of autopilot to make his sacrifice appear legendary. Would you shoot nukes at an asteroid? Or would you fly into the center of an asteroid to ensure it is destroyed?
" Batman would not appear as a hero if he put his hope in the Bat blowing down the buildings and carrying the bomb out to sea. If Batman ejects to imitate Selina's plan, he would have some explaining to do."
Batman doesn't care if he is seen as a hero or not. That's the point. He never considered himself as a hero: in TDK, he made it clear that Batman was just an entity that existed to serve the needs of the city. It doesn't matter what people see him as, even as a villain, because that is what needs to happen to protect them. In this case, he just did what he had to do, one last time, and be done with Batman. It was time to become Bruce, not Batman.
Why would Nolan choose to have the Alfred scene, where he is happy? As you said, the focus is on Bruce. Why should Alfred all of a sudden have these apparitions if he's not the focus? WHy the sudden change?
"Gordon never admits to Blake the actual person who saves Gotham. He mentions Batman. Would it make sense for Gordon to say that "I know who saved us" with a appreciative look?"
What do you think the sequence of events was, when all the attendees came to "Bruce Wayne's" funeral?
Blake: Commissioner? What are you doing here?
Gordon: What am I doing here? What are you doing here? How did you know Bruce?
Without asking each other questions, I think it's pretty obvious. They both know that Bruce is Batman, vice versa.
I don't believe delivering the atomic bomb is a simple task. Even Fox doubted the autopilot could be repaired, let alone thinking Bruce fixed it.
DeleteIn movies, the climax is usually the toughest test. The pit jump is conveyed as a major obstacle. Bruce Wayne wanted so badly to make the jump. He was never ready to make the jump.
The atomic ending shows us the high point of tension to reach the explosion. When would Batman have ejected out of the Batwing? You mentioned Batman ejected out of the Batwing before exploding the buildings? You noted that Batman is flying a second Batwing into the city because the shadows are consistent with the buildings. The plot holes seem far more complex than Nolan serving up the obvious clues in the end so that every character has their moment to reflect on Bruce surviving.
I doubt Bruce is implied as an apparition in the scene. We could be viewing Bruce in an artsy scene to pay tribute to his character through Alfred's perspective. Can we have a scene that is not real in time and space? Just a portrait of a noble man who is viewed as happy.
The private funeral is not so obvious. If we imply that Gordon and Blake both think the other knows the true identity of Batman, then we can conclude that Gordon told Bruce in the hospital that Blake save him in the sewer. The hospital would imply that Bruce confides in Blake to assume the role as Gotham's new protector.
I believe Blake wanted Gordon to say that Bruce saved us instead of the Batman. Maybe Gordon acknowledging Bruce as the savior would have changed Blake's mind to reconsider another stint with the police force.
We see that Blake has good integrity. He is an honest guy that follows the rules by the book.
These are my theories. You provide detailed explanations that are convincing. However, I still have my doubts, especially with the pit, the early Alfred fantasy, the atomic ending, saying there is no autopilot, the exact time this autopilot patch was repaired, whether Bruce repaired the Bat signal, and whether the cafe ending is real.
Thanks for contributing the explanations.
Sorry for all the typos (phone). It annoys me that everyone and I mean everyone thinks he is alive...people have put too much stock in the lucius/6 month autopilot fix scene while ignoring selina's plea for him to use autopilot and wayne's refusal. Maybe the Zimmer score was too loud during that scene and people missed it. One more thing. SELINA acts as a place filler in that final scene..she does nothing but look around with a coy smirk. I also have a theory thay Alfred is the one who leaves the items for Blake. They say the will has never been updated to reflect the wayne financial mess...so it would have to be alfred who gives it to blake. He already left the mansion to the kids. Finally that was the Robin movie. BLAKE is the next Batman in the Nolan universe...forget comic history..it doesnt exist in Nolans mind. He is lifted in the batcave and then the screen shows The Dark Knight Rises...no accident there. Very good movie that will be reinterpreted by manythe over the next year after DVD release.
ReplyDelete@jasonm921,
DeleteNo worries. Thanks for sharing your insight again. Great plot points to fill the voids. You definitely know how movies work.
Batman/Selina discussing the autopilot is a major point. I agree with you about Selina serving as a place filler. I mentioned that she sitting there as a filler, but many others attacked the theory.
Your theory about Alfred leaving the bag is huge. It is the first time anyone has mentioned this. You have a strong critical eye.
After the initial viewing on July 20, 2012, I also believe Blake will become Batman. I added Robin and or Nightwing in the mix as well. After reading your analysis, I'm leaning toward Batman too.
It is very cool to read an excellent analysis that provides great viewpoints. I agree with you that TDKR will continue to be interpreted long after the DVD release.
What are you theories on the Bat signal? That is another clue most will use as debating firepower. Thanks for contributing another awesome analysis.
You're exactly right about Nolan choosing to defy traditional Batman movies. In the trilogy, Batman is a mortal man that is capable of dying. Thanks again. Awesome work!
I would like to point out that I saw a suggestion that he actually said "no, autopilot". i.e. don't "fly it over the bay and eject" just drop yourself off and set autopilot. I mean, I wouldn't assume that flying monstrosity have autopilot. I'd have assumed he'd attempt to actually fly it and then eject (ala Angels and Demons) and then the correct response would be "no time".
DeleteHowever, this would require him to have said it in an ambiguous way. Such that we believe he said that there's no autopilot (because that's what we were told earlier). I can't find this scene anywhere at the moment (and I'm not downloading the entire movie...) so I can't tell if this is a legitimate argument.
I do think, however, that the original name "Robin" was just added to please the original fans. Whatever he'll become in any potential future movies I don't know.
My final statement is that I can't help but think it's weird that Nolan would make it so 'obvious' he's alive with the sole intention of causing a minority (who may or may not be right) to believe he's dead. It sounds almost like a cruel joke because a lot of watchers wouldn't even contemplate that he may be dead.
But overall I have to guess he's alive. I find it too odd that they even mentioned autopilot at all if it was never going to work (or just act as a way to make his death even more obscure). Who would actually expect that thing to ever have autopilot?
And then all the other theories that are required for the "batman dies" plot aren't needed (not they are wrong, it's just that if he lives then it means they're all factual)
Just my point of view that I can't actually check out until I see the movie again and that "no autopilot" scene.
Just a quick addition:
DeleteAlfred did tell Bruce that the city was destroying him. And it's not like he could fully hide his batman identity with the number of people knowing it gradually growing. So faking his death to escape and start fresh is not unreasonable.
I have thought of the alternative, I just currently do not agree with it.
Further addition:
DeleteI think the best argument POINT for stating he may be dead is by describing the ending of the second one. About how the public is led to believe Dent was a hero because they deserved as much.
But once again I don't see why he'd have said "no autopilot" if it's later discovered that he fixed it... so "no, autopilot" is still an option here.
Also, I have nothing against that fact that Alfred may be dreaming. I don't believe it's possible to prove he's not. I mean, there's always the chance it was left ambiguously to just make people talk about the movie (by ending on a less than obvious cliff hanger). The same way Inception pretty much ended.
@Sammy,
DeleteThe "autopilot" is strange. It seems too obvious to mention the autopilot. The sheep to follow the autopilot lead to reject any notion that Bruce is dead. Every argument claims Batman is alive because he uses autopilot. There is not much thought put into the discussion.
It is like suggesting Hitchcock never intended to use the rule of 3 and motifs in his films. He just made movies to entertain people. These filmmakers know exactly what they're doing.
I believe the minority is growing. There are many people questioning the ending, validating whether the cafe is reality or a dream. It is more than a cruel joke. We are part of an elaborate mystery with multiple interpretations.
The cafe scene is the most common mystery. Think about the meaning of Tale of Two Cities. The main protagonist actually dies to improve the city. He dies understanding his meaning in life. The last quote you mentioned in the second Batman movie is important, as the hero and villain references indicate choosing to die a hero to give hope.
It is not that complex to prove the cafe ending. The audience sees the ending through Alfred's POV. We never enter the mind of another character. This is Alfred's fantasy. It doesn't matter whether Bruce has a scar, or is with Selina. The goal of the scene is to establish that Alfred now imagine Bruce happy.
Alfred's need to see Bruce happy may make him hallucinate. He sees what he wants to see. Mentioning too many clues, especially autopilot, is too easy. Retirement and happiness are irrelevant themes. Nolan's Batman movies are fate, hope, and integrity. The people of Gotham need Batman more than he needs them.
Mentioning he has no autopilot means more to us because we realize his ultimate sacrifice. Why not use something you repaired. How much time has passed since Fox discovered the autopilot patch. Are we talking about several months. The timeline will explore the truth.
I can't remember whether the autopilot revelation is discovered before or after the reading of the last will and testament. The Wayne will was in disarray. Alfred is the one that delivers the wayne Manor to the children. Could it be possible Alfred left the bag behind for Blake? Bruce knew of Blake's integrity long before the movie end.
Blake save Gordon's life. We don't have to hear Gordon tell Batman that Blake saved his life. Blake notified Bruce that his funding had ceased. I find it harder to believe Bruce survives the atomic blast, and then goes back for the necklace, prepares the bag, fixes his will, and leaves with Selina to Europe across several months.
How does Bruce leave Gotham? Certainly, most of Gotham knows of Bruce Wayne's death. The cafe ending is anything but reality. I'm confident the cafe is not to inform Alfred Bruce survived and that he is living happy ending in retirement and with the woman he loves.
Batman does tell Selina he has no autopilot. Why mention this? Batman would never share that he is about to deliver the atomic bomb to his death. he shares his hero and jacket reference with Gordon. He owed it to Gordon to reveal his identity in a discrete way.
The Dark Knight movie ends with a quote. Showing that Dent is a criminal impacts the Dent Act. Batman knows the truth must die with Dent to preserve Gotham. The public is led to believe Batman died to save Gotham. Bruce Wayne died to save his city. He left the world understanding the meaning of his sacrifice.
Fox could be smiling as a way to express why Bruce didn't use the autopilot rather than give us a smirk to show he did use it to escape and retire from Batman.
Thanks for commenting.
I don't buy your Alfred theory. Alfred has always advocated for Harvey Dent to be the hero, and not Batman. Alfred wanted the public to make a difference together, and not depend on one man.
DeleteAlfred knew that being Batman would result in loneliness and self-perpetuated sadness. So after the one person I told, to stop being Batman, after he dies, I encourage another person to do it?
I also thought that Alfred was always "anti-batman" and so probably didn't encourage Blake.
DeleteBut the mere mention of autopilot JUST to mislead the general audience seems wrong. Why mention it at all if he'll never use it? Or more specifically, that he repaired it and CHOSE to die when he could have lived and moved out of Gotham (as the ending suggests when read plainly). I'd have been fine with it if it wasn't "repaired" later, but it was which means he'd have chosen to die.
And why would Fox smirk at that! That's more than bizarre.
And you completely ignored the other potential take on the line "no autopilot". I'll agree that I can't see what's that like right now though.
And the cafe scene is possibly real as Bruce knew of Alfred's "habit" and would have appeared there. That's why that scene is ambiguous.
Personally I had assumed the multiple clues were not for the "audiences" benefit at all. But instead a way to individually show each characters realizing that Bruce is alive.
As for leaving, when nobody is looking it's amazing how easy it is to walk right past people. You ever looked for someone in a car park only to realize that the person you're looking for is much closer that you thought waving their arms at you?
And wasn't it noted that the autopilot was repaired by Bruce himself?
If he did die, then I do have to agree that it'd be a fitting end. The sacrifice matches nicely with the previous movie and has a deep meaning.
It's just the way I see the clues I believe that the probability of him being dead is too low.
Thanks for the reply though.
Btw...nolan prefers to make his movies like a form of art...with meaning and thought. This movies ties into the others more than the previous one did. Look at the last quote from the Dark Knight.... sometimes the truth isnt good enough sometimes people deserve more ..they need their faith rewarded (paraphrased from memory) sound familiar???? This movie is more than batman punches...batman flies...batman kicks ass. Its a novel told in movie form.
ReplyDelete@jasonm921,
DeleteI agree that Nolan is into artsy movies. His previous film work conveys deeper thought. If we were reading the screenplay, every page contains important points.
You make a strong point with the TDK quote. People need hope with showing an Alfred scene to make them think whether Bruce is dead or alive. TDKR is a artsy movie that touches on faith, fear, hope, and sacrifice. We are essentially watching a novel projecting on the silver screen rather than another The Avengers movie.
There is more to Batman than his crime fighting and cool technology. Thanks for sharing the quote. It all makes sense. I appreciate your analysis, especially seeing the movie from another perspective besides the obvious.
Batman is a symbol that lives forever, that is what this film and the whole trilogy is saying. The end where Blake takes the Bat-cave is a sense of that continuation. I think that this whole discussion defeats the purpose of the movie.(But, its always nice to hear other peoples thoughts)
ReplyDeleteEven if Bruce dies, Batman will live on as a legend, a symbol, a light. After all, the title is "The Dark Knight Rises"(Emphasis on the 'Rises'.)
Sometimes the extra details help to tie all knots and once again provide closure to the audience.
@Edward,
DeleteThanks for sharing. I agree that dead or alive, there is strong symbolism throughout the movie.
The discussion is good to show that people have opposing viewpoints. Some people believe in the obvious, while others choose a least popular outcome. The cafe ending is open for interpretation.
You're right that reviewing additional details enable us to find closure - resolution or a new beginning.
Thanks again for sharing your ideas.
Well all those clues leaves a bag full of arguments ! But i have a point to make. Movies starts with Batman in exile for 8 yrs, these 8 years Harvey dent was the people's inspiration and selfbelieve until his reality being thrown out by Bane. People's belief broken, that moment batman breaks the prison and is back to the world to bring back the lost hope and belief. At the end, batman was planned to die by Bruce so that people will get back their self belief and hope. But when the hope dies Bruce may return once officer Gordon hits the newly repaired signal. Meanwhile robin is born leaving his identity as a police officer who will help Batman in keeping up the hope alive. Wayne wished to see ALfred happy and he did so at the end where Alfred acknowledges Wayne. For me, batman lives to save the world with robin.
ReplyDelete@Den,
DeleteThanks for commenting. The people are lose hope because Bane put fear into the city. Police officers were also trapped underground. We can view this as fear. I don't see that people lost hope. They are afraid to fight against Bane and his thugs.
Whether Batman lives or dies, he is a here. People will honor bravery and sacrifice. We see this often that an act of sacrifice is viewed as heroism. In a recent news story, a young boy who saved a young girl from drowning died himself. In the comment section, people identified the boy as a hero.
Do you have to sacrifice your life to become a hero. No. Bruce Wayne considers Gordon a hero. Gordon gave him hope that life would go on. He can overcome his darkness.
The Dark Knight Rises is a movie all about fear, hope, fate, sacrifice, and heroism.
Seeing Bruce Wayne at the end is not necessary to show he is alive. However, the cafe ending is suspect to anything but the obvious.
You have your points. However, I still believe Bruce Wayne died. The cafe ending is intended to make people think. They will watch the movie many times to decipher the clues.
Thanks for commenting.
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