The Dark Knight Rises movie is structured like a crime case. As Batman and movie fans, we must connect the plot dots to solve the movie case. Analyzing The Dark Rises ending requires piecing together plot clues to validate claims. Causality conveys that with cause there follows an effect. The Dark Knight Rises ending analysis is featured below.***Batman Spoilers***
Do you think Batman survives in The Dark Knight Rises movie? Does Alfred really see Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle dine at an Italian Cafe? Think an autopilot fix is enough to convince you that Batman survived the atomic blast? Batman is a groomed crime fighting machine. He relies on training, Bat gadgets and experience to fight crime. We can choose Batman dies or lives.
Batman fans claim the Bat suit saved Batman. Moreover, Batman fans believe an autopilot fix 6 months prior to the atomic blast proves Bruce Wayne is alive. Is the autopilot repair a reliable clue to substantiate Batman/Bruce Wayne's true fate in the end? Do you believe the Nolan brothers intended to write an open-ended cafe scene to inspire Batman fans to look further into TDKR clues?
The autopilot repair gives Fox hope that Bruce Wayne survives the atomic blast. Batman fans believe Batman controlled the Bat plane from a remote location. With about 5 seconds remaining on the bomb timer, Batman is still flying the Bat plane out to sea. Batman fans go the distance to imply the "5-second" shot is out of sequence. Batman flying the Bat plane over the water with 5-seconds remaining to atomic detonation is real.
In the pit prison, Bruce Wayne heals his body and mind to strengthen his core. He attempts to use a rope to leave the prison, failing twice to make the jump. This rope symbolizes both fate and hope. Using the rope to escape the pit prison is thus depending on a safety net to escape fear (hope). However, making the great escape "without the rope" conveys to us that Bruce Wayne accepts his destiny to save Gotham City (fate). If Bruce misses the stone ledge, then Gotham City will crumble
Since the rope symbolizes fate and hope, we can view "with a rope" as choosing hope and "without a rope" as fate. Batman knows that repairing the autopilot gives him hope to save Gotham City. However, Batman realizes he must pilot the Bat plane in order to dispose of the atomic bomb. In result of this action, Batman increases the probability that fate saves Gotham City.
Batman is an unselfish hero. Gordon views him as a hero. On the opposing side, Batman considers Gordon a hero for putting a coat on his shoulders. Gordon consoles a young Bruce after losing his parents. Batman fights crime to protect Gotham City. His moral deed (fate) is to save Gotham. There is not enough time to eject out of the Bat plane. Batman fans hope that Batman/Bruce Wayne ejects and or is controlling the Bat plane. In this scenario, Batman depends on hope to save Gotham.
Batman remains inside the Bat plane. He flies the Batman plane out to sea. An atomic bomb dangles below the Bat plane. It is Batman's fate to overcome his fear of death. Batman fans state that Bruce's fear of death is associated with dying in the pit while Gotham falls.
Bruce Wayne recovers from a fractured back to restore his physical strength. He improves his mind to increase his moral faith. The pit prison symbolizes fear and pain. Bruce Wayne channels this fear and pain into reaffirming his courage and strength. Moreover, the rope helps Bruce Wayne to abandon fear. Bruce chooses his fate to escape a Hell hole in time to save Gotham.
Bruce Wayne recovers from a fractured back to restore his physical strength. He improves his mind to increase his moral faith. The pit prison symbolizes fear and pain. Bruce Wayne channels this fear and pain into reaffirming his courage and strength. Moreover, the rope helps Bruce Wayne to abandon fear. Bruce chooses his fate to escape a Hell hole in time to save Gotham.
In the Gladiator movie, Maximus intends to return Rome to the people. It is Marcus Arelius's wish to restore balance between Rome and its people. Maximus symbolizes the fate of Rome. Commodus compromises his father's plan, choosing a false hope (greed and power) to steal the fate of Rome. The premise depends on hope, whereas Maximus relies on fate to make the journey. Maximus must work from the bottom up (General>Slave>Gladiator>Rome) to defeat Commodus.
Bruce Wayne tries to escape the pit prison with a broken back. He is not ready to make the jump. In time, Bruce's injured back (strength) heals. He gains the courage (mind) to make the jump. Most people hide their fears to show strength and courage. Bruce Wayne uses anger (murdered parents) to hide his fear of death.
Bruce questions how a child (Bane) can make the jump. The pit physician mentions (we don't remember the exact movie quote) that a tested child and or person who is hardened with pain can make the jump. Essentially, this child holds faith and courage to escape pain. The child needs to make the jump to overcome fear. He contrasts the environment with suggesting a person with privilege doesn't understand struggle enough to escape pain. If we had access to the exact quote, it would be a powerful symbol to support this analysis.
Do you think Batman will rely on autopilot to guide the atomic bomb outside of Gotham? Batman would have to eject the Bat plane with about 20 seconds remaining to escape the atomic blast. It is not about saving himself from dying to enjoy a happy retirement. Batman's facial expression (big decision) with about 5 seconds remaining on the bomb timer conveys that he chooses fate over hope. We can all hope we reach our dreams, but we must rely on accepting our fate to overcome challenges and obstacles.
Batman knows better than to choose hope with autopilot. The fate of Gotham depends on Batman. Bruce Wayne can change his mind to abandon the autopilot plan. It is too predictable to suggest autopilot is used to guide the atomic bomb out to sea. It gives you hope that Batman/Bruce survives.
***Movie Spoiler***
The astronauts in Deep Impact choose fate instead of depending on firing additional nuclear weapons into the comet. They fly the space shuttle armed with the remaining nuclear weapons right into the comet to preserve the fate of mankind. In Armageddon, the crew choose fate to destroy the asteroid. Harry stays behind to detonate the nuclear weapon, preserving the fate of Earth. Maximus fights and kills Commodus to return Rome to the people. These heroes don't depend on mere hope to save the day. We believe Batman chooses fate to save Gotham.
In the Italian Cafe scene, Alfred is likely dreaming and or imagining Bruce as happy. We don't have enough time to watch his character deteriorate. At Bruce Wayne's gravesite, Alfred grieves the loss of his Master Bruce. It is acceptable to think Alfred is imagining Bruce and Selina enjoying lunch. Why should Alfred dream about Bruce and Rachel? Alfred tore up Rachel's letter, knowing that she died loving Harvey Dent. He concealed the truth to protect Bruce. Unless Alfred is lucid dreaming, his dreams are on autopilot.
In this cafe scene, the primary focus is Bruce. The daylight shines on Bruce. Selina is unimportant in this ending scene. She represents an object of affection. Bruce's happiness is the center of attention. Alfred knows about the pearl theft. After Selina steals Bruce's car, Alfred pick him up at Miranda's party. Bruce never mentions anything regarding the recovered pearls. The focus then is that Bruce is going home alone.
The truth is that Batman/Bruce died in the atomic explosion. Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are together having lunch in this exact Italian cafe with Alfred present? Watch this cafe scene again to analyze Alfred and Bruce. Coincidence? Random? Dream? Destiny?
Alfred is having a personal moment of happiness in his dream. As we remember at Bruce's private funeral, Alfred is emotionally distraught. He admitted to Mr. and Mrs. Wayne that he let them down. He wants more than anything for Bruce to find happiness. Grieving people are capable of experiencing subconscious dreams. There is no rule to dreaming, as Batman fans point out that Selina discredits this Italian cafe scene as a dream.
Alfred is projecting his internal motivation through his dream, sharing his wish that Bruce finds happiness with us. Alfred's dream gives us hope that Bruce survives the atomic blast. Whenever we mention Alfred is dreaming, Batman fans are on attack mode. They reject the dream theme, stating that this is not Inception.
Dreams and flashbacks project internal thoughts on the silver screen. Screenwriters can't always rely on exposition alone to convey conscious and subconscious thoughts. We never identified lucid dreaming and or mind theft. Batman fans discredit dreams as part of reality. Inception is a movie about lucid dreaming, a plot that involves mind theft and remote viewing. Unless you are an extraterrestrial being, you will experience dreaming. We all have sleeping dreams. Every person on Earth dreams.
Why can't Alfred dream? It is perfect normal to dream. We haven't taken a metaphysical direction with the new Batman movie. In The Dark Knight Rises movie ending, we interpreted the Italian cafe scene as some sort of dream imagery or imagined fantasy.
Alfred is manifesting his grief through imagining Master Bruce's happiness, so we see his Italian cafe paradise as a dream symbol of happiness. Alfred mentioned his desire to look up and see a happy Bruce at this cafe with a loving family. He associates the cafe as happiness, which Bruce deserves after losing his parents.
In this cafe scene, the primary focus is Bruce. The daylight shines on Bruce. Selina is unimportant in this ending scene. She represents an object of affection. Bruce's happiness is the center of attention. Alfred knows about the pearl theft. After Selina steals Bruce's car, Alfred pick him up at Miranda's party. Bruce never mentions anything regarding the recovered pearls. The focus then is that Bruce is going home alone.
The truth is that Batman/Bruce died in the atomic explosion. Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are together having lunch in this exact Italian cafe with Alfred present? Watch this cafe scene again to analyze Alfred and Bruce. Coincidence? Random? Dream? Destiny?
Alfred is having a personal moment of happiness in his dream. As we remember at Bruce's private funeral, Alfred is emotionally distraught. He admitted to Mr. and Mrs. Wayne that he let them down. He wants more than anything for Bruce to find happiness. Grieving people are capable of experiencing subconscious dreams. There is no rule to dreaming, as Batman fans point out that Selina discredits this Italian cafe scene as a dream.
Alfred is projecting his internal motivation through his dream, sharing his wish that Bruce finds happiness with us. Alfred's dream gives us hope that Bruce survives the atomic blast. Whenever we mention Alfred is dreaming, Batman fans are on attack mode. They reject the dream theme, stating that this is not Inception.
Dreams and flashbacks project internal thoughts on the silver screen. Screenwriters can't always rely on exposition alone to convey conscious and subconscious thoughts. We never identified lucid dreaming and or mind theft. Batman fans discredit dreams as part of reality. Inception is a movie about lucid dreaming, a plot that involves mind theft and remote viewing. Unless you are an extraterrestrial being, you will experience dreaming. We all have sleeping dreams. Every person on Earth dreams.
Why can't Alfred dream? It is perfect normal to dream. We haven't taken a metaphysical direction with the new Batman movie. In The Dark Knight Rises movie ending, we interpreted the Italian cafe scene as some sort of dream imagery or imagined fantasy.
Alfred is manifesting his grief through imagining Master Bruce's happiness, so we see his Italian cafe paradise as a dream symbol of happiness. Alfred mentioned his desire to look up and see a happy Bruce at this cafe with a loving family. He associates the cafe as happiness, which Bruce deserves after losing his parents.
Although autopilot is mentioned as Batman's hope, it does not guarantee his fate. Humans are given free will to make decisions. They can change their minds at any time, even after 6 months, to choose fate over hope. Perhaps the autopilot guided the Bat plane to deposit the 6 megaton atomic bomb outside of Gotham City. We hope Batman engages the autopilot rather than pilot the Bat plane to sacrifice his life.
If Batman is a true hero, he knows he must pilot the Bat plane to preserve the fate of Gotham. Employing autopilot increases probability the 6 megaton atomic bomb wipes out Gotham City. What if the line broke? The atomic bomb could possibly get stuck in a tight space. We never see Batman eject out of the Bat plane. He is in the cockpit with about 5-seconds remaining. Batman fans suggest this 5-second glimpse is implied. For the most part, Batman/Bruce's fate is to save Gotham City.
If Batman is a true hero, he knows he must pilot the Bat plane to preserve the fate of Gotham. Employing autopilot increases probability the 6 megaton atomic bomb wipes out Gotham City. What if the line broke? The atomic bomb could possibly get stuck in a tight space. We never see Batman eject out of the Bat plane. He is in the cockpit with about 5-seconds remaining. Batman fans suggest this 5-second glimpse is implied. For the most part, Batman/Bruce's fate is to save Gotham City.
Batman leaves behind a bag to guide John "Robin" Blake. He doesn't hope John Blake eventually discovers his Bat Cave. Blake is given the directions to his fate. He chooses his accept his fate to eventually become Nightwing. In The Dark Knight Rises ending, any viewer can interpret the plot through fact-driven analysis.
Batman fans believe an autopilot saved Batman. They suggest Nolan never uses dream sequences in previous Batman movies. Nolan never faced an end to his Batman trilogy until now. Why not use an Alfred dream sequence? A dream, fantasy or an imagination projecting happiness is allowable in The Dark Knight Rises. This dream sequence has nothing to do with Inception. We are allowed to dream. Dreaming is in our human nature.
We would think the Gotham news reported the death of billionaire Bruce Wayne? Is Italy that isolated? Italians are intelligent enough to identify Bruce Wayne. If Alfred sees Bruce Wayne, the rest of Europe are fully capable. Clean Slate is a program designed to wipe away an identity. Nevertheless, Clean Slate is not intended to function as a mind tool to erase memories.
There is no way Bruce Wayne can have lunch without plastic surgery and or a disguise. Bruce and Selina are two complete opposites. Bruce is viewed as a hero. Selina is a past criminal. Clean Slate is programmed to wipe away a criminal past. Therefore, Selina is given the freedom to escape her criminal background. How can a famous person like Bruce travel Europe without another person spotting him?
If Bruce Wayne is alive, this cafe scene is poorly written. It is too predictable, cliche, and features too many plot holes. In contrast, conveying the cafe scene as a dream is a brilliant plot technique to show a better resolution than retirement. We hope Batman engaged the autopilot to guide the atomic bomb. Nolan used a clever technique with revealing his identity to Gordon in a coat and hero quote.
Telling us that Bruce Wayne repaired the autopilot with a software patch is weak exposition to explain how Batman survived the atomic bomb. As long as Batman fans have hope Batman survived, they can believe that he escape through autopilot, the 5-second shot of Batman is rendered obsolete, and shot of him inside the cockpit is out of sequence.
In the atomic blast, Batman dies. Bruce Wayne is dead. Wayne does not fake his death. He doesn't commit fraud to reach happiness (poking fun). John Blake and Commissioner Gordon inspired Bruce to return back to crime fighting. Alfred pleaded for Bruce to find happiness. It is Bruce's fate to save Gotham City. Bruce Wayne as Batman lives on in our movie memory.
We would think the Gotham news reported the death of billionaire Bruce Wayne? Is Italy that isolated? Italians are intelligent enough to identify Bruce Wayne. If Alfred sees Bruce Wayne, the rest of Europe are fully capable. Clean Slate is a program designed to wipe away an identity. Nevertheless, Clean Slate is not intended to function as a mind tool to erase memories.
There is no way Bruce Wayne can have lunch without plastic surgery and or a disguise. Bruce and Selina are two complete opposites. Bruce is viewed as a hero. Selina is a past criminal. Clean Slate is programmed to wipe away a criminal past. Therefore, Selina is given the freedom to escape her criminal background. How can a famous person like Bruce travel Europe without another person spotting him?
If Bruce Wayne is alive, this cafe scene is poorly written. It is too predictable, cliche, and features too many plot holes. In contrast, conveying the cafe scene as a dream is a brilliant plot technique to show a better resolution than retirement. We hope Batman engaged the autopilot to guide the atomic bomb. Nolan used a clever technique with revealing his identity to Gordon in a coat and hero quote.
Telling us that Bruce Wayne repaired the autopilot with a software patch is weak exposition to explain how Batman survived the atomic bomb. As long as Batman fans have hope Batman survived, they can believe that he escape through autopilot, the 5-second shot of Batman is rendered obsolete, and shot of him inside the cockpit is out of sequence.
In the atomic blast, Batman dies. Bruce Wayne is dead. Wayne does not fake his death. He doesn't commit fraud to reach happiness (poking fun). John Blake and Commissioner Gordon inspired Bruce to return back to crime fighting. Alfred pleaded for Bruce to find happiness. It is Bruce's fate to save Gotham City. Bruce Wayne as Batman lives on in our movie memory.
Whereas the legend of Batman ends, a new hero in Nightwing begins. It is fate that protects Gotham City.
What do you think? Is the cafe scene trickery to make you watch the movie again? Are the plot holes obvious? Do you enjoy the writing? We can leave the cafe ending scene up to our imagination. There is no right or wrong interpretation. Thanks for reading.
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Okay, I'm going to attempt to help you understand the movie better. I'm going to ignore everything above the *movie spoiler* part because honestly your experience of getting robbed has nothing to do with this movie.
ReplyDeleteWe DO see Selina's face, in fact she turns to the side and you can clearly see its Anne Hathaway (Selina Kyle). The film leads up to them being together with their numerous interactions besides the fact that in the comics Batman states Catwoman is his one true love.
Alfred is not having a dream at all. Bruce escaped 'The Bat' but allowed people to think that he was dead so that he could move on with his life. The whole movie, Alfred is trying to get Bruce to hang up the mantle of Batman so he can finally be happy. By letting everyone think he was dead (save Selina obviously, Alfred, and possible Lucius), he can finally live a normal life. While that may seem selfish on the surface, remember that at the end of the day BRUCE (not Batman) is still a man. He deserves to be happy.
Him escaping the explosion is not committing fraud to reach happiness. He gave Gotham a symbol to believe in. It was his fate to save Gotham and he did, but that doesn't mean he died. Nolan would not have included the auto-pilot scene with Lucius, the magically repaired 'Bat-signal,' or the cafe scene... This isn't Inception. There is no hidden agenda, the trilogy gives Bruce Wayne the ending he deserves and the audience wants.
Finally, not to be mean but your writing is atrocious. Your logic is flawed at best. I am sorry you got robbed but to be honest it reads like you're looking for pity. It's not fate you got robbed, it's shitty luck mixed with dumbass criminals.
I'll end by saying this. Maybe being a screenwriter is your calling, but please NEVER EVER EVER try to be a critic, we simply don't have Batman to save us from this trash.
I have no problem with your analysis. However, I mentioned "fraud" and "faking his death" to poke fun at the script.
DeleteAs for the robbery, I'm not looking for pity. My intended goal is to increase awareness, which could possibly prevent another family, person, and even someone like you from becoming a victim. The robbery doesn’t bother me as much as the police and the restaurant concealing surveillance footage with criminals filmed in the act.
I think it is good to mention this case to demonstrate fate is inevitable. If you want to read VisitHouston.wordpress.com, you can review the details of this crime against us (police, insurance, and restaurant).
I challenge that my writing is "atrocious". I helped many professionals and students reach their academic and career goals. Is one ending analyzed post on Batman enough evidence to confirm my writing is not of quality? I run 150 websites. Most of the time, I write in the middle of the night using various blog software. There is high probability that some posts contain random grammar errors because I am rushing to upload posts. When I have time, I usually revise previous posts to ensure quality.
You made a good point. Based on one post, you are confident that my writing is "atrocious." You haven't reviewed any of my professional work. Are you indicating the grammar, spelling or my logic is flawed in this one article?
Previously, I analyzed the Batman "twist ending" on my website that bears the same name. I wrote a simple The Dark Knight Rises twist ending. I dished out a few dozen spoilers, prepared Batman quote analysis, and provided movie answers on many of my best websites. I also write about astral projection, dreams, genre movies, box office results, and much more.
As a writer, I accept your criticism. Writing on this platform it is like typing on an I-Phone. Nothing we do in life is perfect, especially through the written word. When writing scripts, movie taglines, and articles, we must proofread and revise content quite often.
As you know, I disagree with your "atrocious" mention. It does make a good argument that moviegoers must watch the new Batman movie a few times to dissect the key plot points. This Batman ending analysis is not the best example of my past work.
Can Batman fans be so sure to suggest Batman is alive after one viewing? Anything is possible. My analysis is conveying that Batman dies in the atomic blast. A simple autopilot fix is a weak argument. Have you watched the Intersection movie? Check out the movie ending to analyze the “phone call” and “note.” Any people can choose to abandon and or change a plan in a few hours.
No worries because I have no intention to become a film critic. I'm sure your analysis is attributed to this post. I would rather accept you stating that this article is deeply flawed instead of claiming my writing is "atrocious". Your comment proves that most people base overall experience on one sample and or skill.
There are multiple arguments to explain movies. Nolan intended Batman fans to discuss his movie. Further discussion can increase The Dark Knight Rises' longevity in the movie box office.
This past Friday, I wrote a few quality articles that included the points you made in your comment. I took another route to analyze the Batman movie. I believe it is fate that we got robbed. If you read more about the case, you will see the main facts written in narrative form.
Thanks for the feedback. If you think this analysis is trash, that is fine. This ending analysis is one article as opposed to thousands of samples. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. Thanks again.
Actually you missed the fact that Bat signal was repaired and it wasn't Blake who fixed it. Which obviously means someone else fixed it.
DeleteI completely agree with you and just one more thing, if alfred would have been dreaming, why does he see Selina Kyle? He could have simply seen some other lady because Bruce never reveals to Alfred that he has a romantic interest in Selina...
DeleteI've watched the movie several times and at the end when they are talking about "The Bat", the mechanics say it was repaired six months ago, and the last user was Bruce Wayne, and Lucius does a kind of smile, like a smile of hope.
DeleteAlso, Alfred tells Bruce about the cafe that he goes to.
So I do believe Bruce Wayne survived the ordeal, and just went there to make Alfred happy.
Alfred seeing Bruce in the cafe was only his hope (and alway has) of Bruce Wayne's fate. Lucius Fox being informed of the autopilot fix was his "hope" that Wayne survived. Even Gordon is given hope when he sees the the bat signal is whole once more. Gotham will only come to remember The Batman, but but the hope Bruce Wayne has is that Blake will take on the mantle as protector of Gotham City. Bruce Wayne died in the explosion. The auto-pilot was broken. He told Selina as much; why would he lie and and at such a time? That's my interpretation of the ending.
DeleteEven if we do assume that Batman survived the detonation by activating the autopilot before ejecting himself from the Bat 5 seconds prior to the detonation. I wonder and ask that how far could he have gone to save himself from an atom bomb just in 5 seconds!
DeleteSo your argument is that with 5 seconds left he wouldn't have been able to survive even if the autopilot is fixed, and he were able to eject from the Bat...but then you have no problem believing that the Lucius Fox was just "hope", Alfred seeing Bruce at the café (after telling him that exact location earlier) was just a "dream", the Bat Signal being repaired is meaningless, the string of pearls being absent is meaningless, and the fact that Bruce told Selena there was a "Clean Slate" program that could wipe anyone's identity off every database in the world???
DeleteTo me its much harder to believe that all of this was just thrown in at the end of the movie as some sort of "dream/hope" sequence but never really happened, than it is to explain that Bruce Wayne DID fix the autopilot, WAS able to eject and survive the blast, DID use the Clean Slate program to wipe himself and Selena from the databases, and WAS seen by Alfred at the café.
correction: Any person can choose to abandon and or change a plan in a few hours.
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned from Chi Chi Dog, it is clear that the bat signal was repaired. If it wasn't Batman that did it, no one else would have.
ReplyDeleteYour dream logic is severely flawed for one simple reason: Why would Alfred dream about Selena at all? Sure, the focus is on Bruce, but why would Alfred associate Selena with Bruce at all?
If anything, Alfred has absolutely no knowledge of Bruce and Selena's relationship whatsoever since he was never in Gotham when their relationship became important. In fact, all Alfred knows is that Selena is a cat burglar that Bruce was looking for.
Which brings me to this point: it is precisely why Selena was fuzzy in the picture: because Alfred doesn't even notice Selena. He sees Bruce, and knows that he made it. He probably doesn't even recognize Selena at all. But she's there: which makes this scene a reality, not a dream.
Dreamers don't dream about the obvious. When people dream about tsunamis, overflowing toilets, teeth falling out, examination, three suns, leaping frogs, decapitations, steps, and other dreams, the subconscious and conscious mind are communicating waking problems. These are accurate dream symbols.
DeleteMost people can improve their waking life. If they keep having recurring dreams, then their mind is communicating a need to confront waking problems.
Alfred can dream about Bruce being happy. It doesn't matter what woman is next to Bruce. Main focus is Bruce. If Selena is in this fantasy, she is not the center of attention. She is a dream fixture there to keep Bruce company.
You can dream tonight. In this dream, people around the main dream symbols have an intended or unintended focus. To a grieving Alfred, Bruce Wayne symbolizes happiness.
Selina is basically a placeholder. Some suggest Alfred should be dreaming about Rachel, but his subconscious associates her as a woman who loved Harvey Dent. Alfred revealed to Bruce that Rachel loved Dent. This upset Bruce.
When I have more time available, I will decipher the entire cafe sequence on my DreamResearch.org website. While people dream, dream symbols are most important. Dreamers can identify the dream symbols without much effort.
The main barrier now is the bat signal. Bruce is an active hero that has an abundance of time to complete all tasks. If The Dark Knight Rises compliments your idea, this is very weak writing to close the series.
We went from a nice Batman and Gordon scene with excellent technique to connect an event to lazy writing to suggest Bat light is fixed, will is updated, autopilot patch repaired 6 months ago, sitting out in the open at a cafe as himself, and bag left behind for Blake.
Choosing to abandon flashbacks after Batman reveals his identity in a crafty scene shows bad writing. We see and hear clue without addressing how Batman survives the atomic blast. Easy to suggest he is not in the Batman plane. Moreover, I also heard the Batman shot with 5-seconds remaining is of him in another escape pod.
If Bruce Wayne is alive, the plot points are flawed. Batman is willing to risk the fate of Gotham on autopilot. In my opinion, too much time went into the setup and development that they ran out of time to construct a good ending. Essentially, the only scene that makes any sense is Blake's uprising.
Dreams are not what they seem. You may dream about people you never met, or that don't exist in this physical world. Thanks for the input.
Hmm, now I'm starting to think you created this blog so you can subtly get people to look at another external website of yours that coincidently is related to dreams.
DeleteRegardless, I agree with you that dreams often focus on your subconscious, but why do we also dream about familiar people? The argument that "dreams only focus on your subconscious" is the be-all-end-all is ridiculous. If you understand dreams as well as you are suggesting, you know that dreams can also focus on people who are significant in your life.
Another point I should make is that when Alfred imagines a person to be Wayne, the male has his back towards him. In this instance, Bruce is facing him.
My argument for Selena's presence is that there is no reason why Selena would be in the scene at all in the "dream". Bruce by many accounts, has interacted with many women. Why Selena? Another coincidence? I don't think so. Yes, Bruce is the focus, I agree. Again, the reason why Selena is out of focus is because Alfred doesn't even notice her, but she's there.
Another point: one of the biggest themes is having a clean slate:
Selena's motive for her actions have always been: do what it takes, clear your history, and leave for paradise.
Bruce also wanted the same thing, but his actions are different on many levels. Bruce is not only cleaning his slate of Batman, but as Bruce Wayne as well. He finally understood Alfred, that he needed to leave, because every time he came back, Alfred knew he would become depressed, alone and hopeless. Alfred was his biggest motivation to get off his ass and do something more with his life. When Bruce responded by becoming Batman once again, Alfred was appalled. This ultimately led Bruce to realize, he can no longer be Batman or Bruce, in that mansion, in order to have a clean slate, to lead a better life, and to prove to Alfred he is more than just a sad, lonely person, destined to die alone.
In addition, it was clear that Bruce's cover is blown. There is no need to be in hiding, because everyone "should" know that Bruce is actually Batman. Which is why Batman suggested to Blake that he should wear a mask, so no loved ones would be hurt.
When Bruce gave Selena the Cleanslate, Selena questioned why he would still help her. Bruce was indirectly telling her, that he is the same as her: he would also want a clean slate, but not with the software: but with his actions. When Selena asked Bruce to leave with her, he confirms that he must first finish all his actions (to finally have a clean slate)
And my final point. For a butler who has found out that the last heir of a family he has served for decades, has died a horrible death, I would suggest that the person will fall into deep depression, and probably have post-traumatic stress. So you're telling me the first day/week/month, he has a happy dream about his former slain master having a nice glass of wine in Europe? Not having nightmares about how he possibly pushed Bruce to death? How he cried nonstop at his grave, regretting his leave, how he failed to protect him? But instead, subconciously, he tries to justify his absence with a happy dream? Come on now.
Pretty simple theory, the latter.
FilmEnding is all about movie endings. I'm more of a movie guy, as my ultimate dream is to write movies. I hold a BA in Film & Media Studies out of UCSB, a Master’s degree in Public Administration, AA in Film, and AA in Liberal Arts. My main concentration is movies.
DeleteI run about 150 websites. Dream Research is a small site. There are not many dream movies to explore - small demand. I'm no dream expert, though I have vast experience in analyzing dreams. Dream websites that enter the dream world are DreamStudies.org and KellyBulkeley.com.
Movie fans want explanations on movie endings, movies, and movie answers. I deal mostly with movies. My movie websites cover several of the best genres. They are websites that can perform without uploading content due to the valuable keywords.
On my astral projection websites, I write about astral projection, dreams, and lucid dreaming. I also explore the OBE, subplanes, astral world, and etc.
I've been running this film ending website quite some time. You will notice film endings on previous movies prior to Batman analysis. I wrote a ton of analysis on ExorcismMovies.com about demonic possession, exorcisms, and movies.
Another comment will follow.
I agree with your Clean Slate analysis. You use good scenes to explain the plot. Clean Slate is more for Selina because she is trying to escape her criminal history.
DeleteToo much time is spent in shaping the revolution that Nolan couldn't elaborate on Alfred. It is not his story. It would play out horrible to watch him have nightmares, experience PTSD, and to rapidly deteriorate over time.
What I'm suggesting is that Nolan can have this dream sequence as Alfred's final moment. He can leave the world seeing Bruce finally happy. Not just a dream, but possibly a last image of his Master Bruce happy.
Alfred can dream about Bruce Wayne's happiness. He is the main subject. Bruce is the dream symbol. The cafe is a safe haven, a symbol of peace. Bright colors is the happy this cafe creates.
If we go with your theory, the cafe plays out like a spy movie. We never see any flashbacks to show us how Bruce managed to survive. The clues are rather weak.
Nolan didn't care to kill Blake's police friend and Foley. After Blake rescues his friend, he is shot dead. Foley changes his mind to fight for Gotham. Miranda and the driver shoot him dead.
We know this Batman movie is dark.
There is not enough time to show a character deteriorate. It would be boring to show every moment in a movie. Screenwriters write what is important. They use motifs, allegory, three dramatic structure, techniques, emotional structure, and little exposition to make viewers think.
Telling us all the clues through dialogue is boring. It is bad writing to reveal everything. You may see a portion of a scene up until the resolution, which then the entire scene can play out in sequential order. Twist endings are common plot devices to explain the motivation.
Do you think it is too random for Alfred to see his reality play out after his world is turned upside down? We don't live in a random world. However, we are destined to do great things. If Gordon hadn't comforted a young Bruce, I doubt there would be a Batman. Bruce Wayne as Batman was destined to save Gotham. He is a sacrificial character is a dark movie.
The Alfred scene is confirmation that happiness is possible. Alfred doesn't have to suffer anymore. He never pushed Bruce to death. He attempted to change Bruce's mind to avoid such an outcome. We won't see Alfred's pain played out on the screen. At 2 hours and 50 minutes, there is no enough time. They barely fit Blake into the ending. The scenes must focus on the main goal.
Humanizing characters make us care about them. Did you feel bad when Maximus died in Gladiator? We finally see him preserve Marcus's dream and to reach his family in the afterlife. Gladiator is a realism movie that conveys hope and dreams. The Dark Knight is constructed on the same platform.
If we didn’t have the Alfred scene, would you be able to prove whether he lived and or died? That scene gives you a bargaining chip to discuss plot points. We could have skipped that scene to see Blake rising as the next hero.
DeleteThere is more to the cafe scene than we know. It is way too predictable to show Bruce alive at the exact cafe Alfred speaks about after the turning point.
You believe Bruce Wayne is alive. I believe he is dead. Either dead or alive, we still have a happy ending. He saved Gotham City. Maybe he could have lived the cafe moment in real life, but he decided that Gotham and people are more important than his willingness to find peace in living.
Have you watched The Woman in Black, I Am Legend, Deep Impact, Outbreak and other movies where there is internal motivation to do an unselfish deed? We have resonating themes such as preserving humanity, reuniting loved ones, and making sacrifices.
This website is not intended to promote dream sites. It doesn't matter if I send traffic to a dream site, because that traffic will eventually flame out. Quality content creates traffic. Predicting trends ahead of time produces quality traffic.
People dream daily. They will examine dream symbols. You want relevant links. I still believe the Alfred scene is not reality. We see this technique often in foreign films (i.e. French New Wave). Dreams convey internal motivation and thoughts.
How many times have you been tricked into believing plot clues to identify a killer whose in fact is another person we least expect? i.e. Devil. Kiss the Girls. In The Sixth sense, we think Bruce Willis is alive the whole time. Doesn't it seem odd that Willis never communicates with the living? The recent The Cabin in the Woods is another movie serves up a plot trick. The Orphan tricks us too.
The Alfred scene and the clues are too obvious. Batman chooses to eject or is at another location while autopilot guides an atomic bomb that is capable of blowing up an entire city out to sea. Do heroes take that much risk? Is that even believable? Seems like a dream to submit to these clues.
Thanks for the input. I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the discussion
Wait a second: you started with Alfred dreaming, to Alfred dying? Ok, now I know you’re just reaching. What could possibly motivate Alfred to imagine (in his last dying moments) his master to be happy after such a tragedy has taken place? For someone who was grieving (quite clearly) for a tragic loss, to become someone who accepts the horrible loss by imagining Bruce to be in a better place, given the fact that Alfred feels guilty for letting Bruce down, makes no sense. I am no expert in counselling, but I can tell you I am in this field. And the odds of individuals in bereavement to accept sudden, tragic death so quickly, is not realistic (even in your own dying moments). Yes, Alfred had always wanted Bruce to be happy, and lead a better life. You cannot downplay how likely Alfred would have experienced PTSD and depression, simply because the “film focused more on the revolution, and it isn’t Alfred’s story.” Please. It is Bruce’s story. But Alfred plays a huge part in Bruce’s story. If Alfred is really not a crucial part of the bigger picture, why even bother put the café scene at the end?
Delete“If we go with your theory, the cafe plays out like a spy movie. We never see any flashbacks to show us how Bruce managed to survive. The clues are rather weak.” But now you’re contradicting yourself. “It would be boring to show every moment in a movie.” Yes! I agree! And btw, this isn’t a spy movie. How Bruce managed to survive is explained in the auto-pilot fix. And yes, I know you can’t imagine why a “hero” would take the risk of using auto-pilot to save the city. And yes, every typical hero would make the “ultimate sacrifice” to save his city by dying with the bomb. But wouldn’t that ending also be predictable, cheesy, and boring? Something that you also can’t possibly accept?
Just a few comments ago, you just said that “It is bad writing to reveal everything (including why Bruce decided to use the auto-pilot). You may see a portion of a scene up until the resolution, which then the entire scene can play out in sequential order. Twist endings are common plot devices to explain the motivation.” My interpretation of his motivation, being: Bruce realized he didn’t want to die. Bruce once thought that maybe that sacrificing his life to save the city would be worth it. To clean the slate of Batman forever. But he realized he wanted more in life: Perhaps he subconsciously imagined himself, being the person in Alfred’s dream, how wonderful it would be: to live without sorrow, live without fear and loneliness. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t have tried so desperately to be involved with the 2 women. He wanted to move on, clean his slate, like Selena. So he decided to live. But he realized the importance of his death as Batman to the public, as his symbol of courage would live on without his physical presence. So he staged it.
DeleteNow, your argument is that Bruce is a famous celebrity. If he were to be in public, people would recognize him right away. Now aren’t we a little biased here? I mean, this is a film about this guy. We, as an audience of film are essentially looking through a microscope on Bruce Wayne. But don’t forget it’s not the same for regular citizens in that movie. Has the world in Batman just watched Bruce’s life in 3 hours, watching his every move? Bruce is probably occasionally featured on Access Hollywood every so often in his world, as just some playboy billionaire, squandering his family fortune, so I’m sure Bruce isn’t as big of an influence as you believe, in his world. Also don’t forget that in the news, Bruce’s assets are gone, split up. Bruce is a nobody now. What would be the motivation for the public in caring? If the news reported that Mark Zuckerberg died, and I saw him walking around the mall, what’s likely to happen? Pandemonium? No, people wouldn’t notice, and if they did, would assume it’s just some guy who looks like the creator of facebook.
And if you want to argue that if he’s a celebrity, and that paparazzi would be all over him…do you remember that he’s actually Batman, a guy who is a ninja and can vanish instantly? Right.
Delete“If Bruce Wayne is alive, this cafe scene is poorly written. It is too predictable, cliche, and features too many plot holes”
But on the other hand, as mentioned: a hero makes the ultimate sacrifice to save his helpless city. Also completely predictable, and cliché. So it’s a lose-lose situation for Nolan. I don’t honestly think Nolan imagined the perfect ending would be: Alfred, in his dying moments, imagines Bruce in a happy place.
Nolan’s perfect ending: Batman has “risen”, by death: he is released from his inner demons of hatred, and the never-fulfilling void he has. But through his death, his spirit will live on by the citizens who will want to live in his example. Bruce Wayne, has risen, by escaping his life of loneliness, constant public criticism and scrutiny, about his wealth, his public douchery. He has risen by starting over with a new clean slate, along with a companion, living a life that Alfred had always wanted for him, and that Bruce also realizes, that he had always wanted too. John Blake, becomes Robin to continue Batman’s legacy, of upholding justice.
You know what I'm just gonna accept? It's clear that you think that my interpretation of the scene would equate to poor writing. I'm fine with that. If that's how you can see where I'm coming from, I'm fine with it. Because to be honest, the writing was not perfect. The bottom line is that Nolan had to make an epic film to top TDK, but also tie up all the loose ends. There would be no time to do all of that within 3 hours, I agree.
At the end of the day, Nolan leaves the film open to interpretation. He will never outright tell people, "Yes, Batman died/No, he didn't die." If anything, Nolan has become the ultimate troll in getting all his fans riled up, in a fury of debating and analysing the hell out of his movies. So, I see your points, but I just don't agree with them, because they don’t make sense to me. I don’t know if you see my points, but it’s clear that you don't agree with them. And that’s fine. Good talk though.
I actually agree with your points. You know how to provide an explanation for any question. It is true that Nolan never gives an exact answer to his films.
DeleteWhich parts of the movie would you want condensed to give more time to explain other scenes? I don't think Nolan's writing in this TDKR is bad. I just suggest that leaving so many plot holes seem like a ploy to create these discussions.
As a result, the movie manages to remain in the spotlight. I'm sure TDKR will make $1 billion worldwide. People will keep watching the movie.
Some writers/directors end their films with a resolution. We know exactly what happens in the movie ending through flashbacks provided in twist endings.
I think fans think it is taboo to kill Bruce Wayne, but it is acceptable to end Batman as we know it. Are we actually resolving Bruce's inner desire to reach happiness? Is happiness even his desire? It seems that Bruce wants what is best for the city - orphans, Alfred, Blake, Gordon, Wayne Enterprises, and the citizens.
The majority are confident Bruce Wayne survives. They will reject any theories to suggest otherwise that Bruce may have died in the explosion.
We go from Batman needing this detonator remote to having a quick plan to dispose of the bomb while also surviving in the process. I like the Blake cliffhanger. The Alfred scene is too similar to his previous narration.
I would believe Nicholas Cage in Knowing to see Aliens in the end after his son tells him he had a dream about the exact scene. It compliments the movie theme. For Alfred to narrate the cafe, and then we see it at the end, makes me rethink the reason we end there. Is Nolan trying to make us evaluate the scene to establish realism?
That's why I keep disagreeing with this end scene as reality. When you think about it, most fans play down the dream and or fantasy - saying this is not Inception or Alfred can't dream about Selina. Even better, Selina is wearing the pearl necklace that is missing from the estate.
Thanks for the great comment. You have a way with analyzing the movie in detail. Your username may explain your possible background in psychology. Thanks again.
Stating that Alfred may be imagining Bruce's happiness in his last moment is one of three theories.
DeleteI would rather stick to the dream sequence that shows Alfred coming to terms that his Master Bruce is happy. Alfred is not to blame for Bruce's death.
I also completed many counseling reports. I've worked in the medial field while serving in the military back in the 90's. In counseling reports, many subjects exhibit contrasting symptoms. It takes several steps to accept death.
What if Alfred is having a dream to imagine Bruce's happiness as it plays out in his previous fantasy? He accepts Bruce's death, albeit imagining or dreaming that Bruce's died with a meaning. Alfred understands the outcome, realizing that Bruce deserves happiness.
Is that too far-fetched to believe this ending is a dream sequence or a fantasy is impossible? If eliminate Alfred sharing this cafe narration, then I agree with you about the ending. It is too much of a coincidence to see an ending that resembles a wish.
If a guy wishes he could find his dream girl leaving a New York City subway, would it be too random for him to find this exact dream girl leaving an NYC subway?
We seem to be dealing with metaphysics. The Adjustment Bureau's theme controls fate. While Batman is human, his villains are realistic.
I still can fathom the cafe scene complimenting a desire indicated several months prior. It is implied that these clues will make you believe this ending.
Thanks for commenting.
I think bruce wayne died because the Italian Scene was brightly colored compared to the normal scenario which is grey / dark bluish colored... I think that was the imagination of Alfred ...
ReplyDeleteThank for the comment.
DeleteYou're one of the rare moviegoers to agree with the dream sequence.
Most Batman fans are sticking to the autopilot and Bat signal. If you mention dream, they automatically resort to this Batman film is not Inception. If Nolan didn't write and direct Inception, then we wouldn't have that setback.
I don't see how an atomic bomb in Gotham is not reported as world news. If so, people would spot Bruce Wayne. He is a former billionaire. Clean Slate is to help Selina erase her criminal past. Society identifies with celebrities rather quickly.
As another commenter suggested, if Donald Trump is sitting at an Italian Cafe, people would recognize him. Clean Slate is incapable of erasing human minds. It is a software.
I agree with your interpretation of the colors. I thought about it on Friday night. The clues seem to throw hope at us that maybe he survived or died. We remember Alfred grieving at the Wayne parents and Bruce's grave. He could easily have a dream or fantasy about Bruce finding happiness. It is what Alfred wanted for Bruce. Bruce decided to activate Batman again.
In Alfred's early narration of the cafe, the colors are dull, while this Italian ending is brightly lit and his POV.
Alfred can find happiness in his imagination. Dreaming is consistent with real life. The common Inception copout is that some think we are trying to suggest that dreams are beyond reality. We are not taking the lucid dreaming or dream projection route. Dreams are part of reality.
Thanks for sharing your input.
Yeah, I agree with you, I can't imagine Alfred is just faking his tears to cover up bruce wayne... I really think batman/bruce wayne died He can't survive that blast, and last but not the least I don't think Mr. Nolan is that simple minded and give us a happy ending... :-D
DeleteI agree with you. Simple minds will accept clues with a vague ending as evidence. It is like the Fracture movie.
DeleteThere is more to the Alfred scene. Ending the batman movie with the Alfred scene would change the outcome. The main focus in the end is Blake. Thanks.
Thing is, I believe Bruce had patched the auto-pilot before his first fight with bane, I suppose back then he may have still been relying on the concept of hope - as seen in the dark pit when he would attempt to get out by using the rope. However, after learning to face his fear of death (without the rope), he learns that he will not be able to save both gotham and himself (the fixed auto-pilot will not help him) because then he would be relying on hope and that could lead to gotham's downfall (like constantly falling with the rope). I am very certain, that Batman/Bruce Wayne is dead.
ReplyDeleteThanks Alex for the comment. I agree with you too.
Delete***Movie Spoiler***
In another movie, Intersection, the main protagonist decides that he wants to leave his girlfriend. He writes a letter to break off their relationship.
On his travel, he sees children. This changes his mind. He calls the woman to leave a message on her answer machine that he wants to have children and that he saw children. He was excited.
Down the road, the protagonist is involved in a major car accident. He is taken to the hospital. He dies. His girlfriend listens to the message. She knows the truth about his real feelings.
At the hospital, his ex-wife withholds the letter they find on her ex-husband. The girlfriend visits the hospital. She discovers he died. The ex-wife thinks it is best to keep the truth concealed rather than upset her. The girlfriend knows the truth about the message.
There are two truths, but only one fate that is destined. The man wanted to start a family with the girlfriend. His ex-wife thinks she is doing a good deed to withhold the note. This girlfriend is the one that broke up their marriage. The audience is put in a position to know the real truth.
The autopilot repair is hope. Without this plot device, we can say Bruce is dead - 100%. Batman wasted too much time trying to get Bane to confess the whereabouts of the remote detonator. He focused on finding the bomb.
I don't think he planned to dispose of the bomb. It was only when Miranda indicated there is no way the bomb could be stopped that he knew his fate. I would think he repaired the autopilot as a responsible pilot. It is like repairing our car brakes.
Thanks for commenting. You are also one of few people who believe Bruce Wayne is dead as well. Thanks again.
Delete
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DeleteNo problem. However, there was one scene at the end of this movie that has been really bugging me. We know from previous knowledge that Bruce's idea was that anyone could be batman, a symbol for justice. So my question is, was the reason for fixing the bat light because he was hoping for someone to take his place or was it just a symbol for the people of Gotham? I honestly think that it was intended for Blake, since at the end of the movie he retrieved some kind of bag and later found the batcave - by either a clue (good detective) or fate itself - that and the fact that his legal name turned out to be Robin. But I'd like to hear what you think. I also really like the connection you made with the brightness and colour of the Italian Cafe in Alfred's dream in contrast to his memory. But remember, the memory was the ONLY other time we saw this Cafe, so it could just be that it was designed to look more darkened and dim then it would in real life, especially because it was somewhat of a sad memory. However, I do still agree that the whole scene was just a dream, no doubt about that.
DeleteThanks Alex.
DeleteI think the Bat light is a duel symbol - the light will continue to shine for the people of Gotham (both memorial/honor/hope) to let them know that even though Batman has left, another protector in Blake/Robin/NIghtWing will assume his place.
I believe Bruce left the bag with his lawyer. He may have decided to prepare this bag after meeting Blake at his home. Blake mentioned that the kids and he looked up to Wayne as a younger boy/orphan. They(orphans) seem to believe that they could rise above their situation to reach a dream (Bruce Wayne/orphan). They thought he was cool. Blake informed Bruce that his foundation stopped funding the orphan program.
Blake saved Gordon's life in the sewer. I think Blake earned Bruce's respect long ago. He probably prepared that bag since he was about to go up against the most powerful villain ever. It's one of those situations where a character goes up against someone they fear may kill them. Therefore, they need a plan B set into place just in case
I think partial fate and prime detective instincts enable Blake to reach the Bat Cave. Sharing his legal name of "Robin" is an exposition clue to reiterate the fact that this is divine fate foreshadowing that Gotham will always have a protector. It is Blake's destiny (like Bruce).
Thanks for the compliment on the lighting. Another commenter mentioned the brightly lit scene. Thanks for the good questions and thorough analysis.
I watched a video of the Blake ending a few nights ago. It showed both Blake and Christian Bale's characters finding the Bat Cave simultaneously. It only had 2 page views then. I can't locate the video again. It was cool to watch
Very well put, that explains it pretty well. Do you understand the beggining of this movie at all? I understand why they needed to capture the scientist (for creating the nuclear weapon), but the part with the blood, I was a bit sketchy there. I believe at some point in the movie, when they bring out the bomb on to the football stadium, they mention that the scientist was confirmed dead on a plane crash. That leads me to believe, they took the blood because they wouldn't be able to identify the bodies, but they would the blood, and have the extra guy stay behind so they would have an even number of bodies as there were on the plane. It's unfortunate you can't locate the video you were talking about, it sounds pretty mindblowing, I'll try locate it, but it must have been removed most likely.
DeleteThanks Alex. You have very good questions. You have a strong analytical mind, especially with discussing films.
DeleteYou're exactly right! Your assessment about the opening is accurate. They leave an extra body behind in place of Dr. Pavil. The blood is probably DNA evidence to verify Dr. Pavil as a crash victim.
I can't remember whether the plane explodes after they cut the line. There is so much rope symbolism in the movie. Now that you mention this opening scene, it makes me think whether Batman released the line holding the atomic bomb and raced off.
Now that we are discussing a moving plane dropping a broken plane, there is some foreshadowing going on.
Sometimes directors intend to encode these scenes with message. However, the scenes can be a coincidence. As a director, you may shoot a scene that conveys a foreshadow, allegory and or a motif (i.e. red door in The Sixth Sense). These can all serve as recurring themes, symbolism and even foreshadowing an outcome to explore a greater meaning. Everything in a great film happens for a reason (causality). Nolan's Memento begins from end and goes through reverse chronological order to reveal a twist of the murder.
In film theory at UCSB several years ago, we used to analyze films several times a day for 5 days a week - both foreign and American films. I also took part in many film course and discussions in other colleges leading back to 1996. It is cool to think back, reflecting on techniques, film theory, screenwriting, and other film elements.
In one advanced theory course, there is one film where the director foreshadows a man that will be hanged in the resolution with casting a shadow of a tree appearing as a rope around his neck. Hitchcock commonly employed the Rule of Three in dramatic scenes to escalate the tension (i.e. Notorious).
The TDKR ending video was really cool. The person who uploaded the video put a disclaimer underneath to say they intentions are not to make a profit from WB, instead to give movie fans good content to view.
It was edited to show JGL and CB making the climb. They both swing inside the Bat Cave. We hear the theme music. Bats swirl around them. Then, we see the platform rising up with JGL to end with a cliffhanger - a new beginning.
Thanks for an awesome discussion.
I loved Memento, the first time I saw it I was all jaw open and in shock, it was a great movie. You sound very successful and you are very good in terms of analysing different movies and writing good and detailed descriptions, summaries (different scene's) and thoughts about the movie, you are also really good at answering hard boiled questions that will most likely come to mind many times when you watch a movie. Keep up the amazing work. Do you by any chance have a review of the 'black swan'? I still don't quite understand a few of the things that have happened in that movie and I haven't been able to locate much of an answer either...
DeleteThanks Alex.
DeleteMemento is one of Nolan's best films. It is also one of the better twist ending movies. It goes in reverse chronological order to reveal a major plot twist at the end, which is actually the true murderer.
Thanks for the compliment. It definitely inspires me to keep contributing content to provide the best analysis possible. I try to keep active with writing daily on many of my movie websites.
I noticed that my best performing websites are related to spoilers, endings, and genre movies. ExorcismMovies.com continues to perform extremely good several months after The Devil Inside movie. We still have The Possession due out this August 31, 2012. I plan to develop TheApparitions.com to write about ghost, paranormal, and supernatural movies. Good market.
As for movie questions, I think a lot of it has to do with my movie dream. Two times I moved to Los Angeles. This last time, I lived out in LA area for 7 years. Most of my energy went into completing my education, helping others to reach their education and professional goals, and struggling. I never got a fair chance to engage into the movie industry.
In the past year, I developed many websites on good domains to interact with people. I noticed that many websites hold back the real answers to keep people coming back. I don't mind providing answers, especially when I can help another person understand the real meaning and or my opinion.
I appreciate the compliments. The writing world can become isolated, so communicating with people who appreciate work means a lot.
I haven't reviewed Black Swan yet. However, I watched the movie. You can ask any plot questions. I have extensive experience in writing mental disorder papers. I completed a few projects on applying mental disorders to Unleashed and Canvas movies. I can review that film on my PsychologicalMovies.com website.
From my personal perspective, the movie seems to involve schizophrenia and or psychosis. Nina begins to have hallucinations, seeing and engaging in things that are not real (psychosis symptoms). Her instructor pushes her, telling her she must reinvent herself to complete the Black Swan transformation.
Nina enters a dark world. She over exhausts herself to the point in which she develops a mental disorder. I believe the movie is trying to portray schizophrenia, but Nina has more severe psychosis, which is probably brought on by binge and purging, exhaustion, genetics, possible drug use, pressure to succeed, emotional distress, existing Axis 2 disorders, and possible OCD and anxiety disorders.
Essentially, Nina becomes unstable to alternate between reality and fantasy. Her ballerina profession keeps her in reality, but she eventually loses her mind in the movie ending. She believed she killed the Lily character. Nina realizes that she injured herself. She completes the Black Swan transformation, but dies after delivering the best performance ever.
I hope that helps. Feel free to ask any questions. Thanks for the input on this website. A month ago, I planned to sell this FilmEnding website. However, the high Batman traffic changed my mind. Thanks again.
I wrote a Black Swan twist ending on my Twist Endings website.
Deletehttp://www.twistendings.com/2012/07/black-swan-twist-ending.html
I appologize for the late reply, I was off on vacation and had no access to internet. I am going to go check out your twist ending for the Black Swam right now.
DeleteNo worries. I wrote two comments on the twist endings. Hope you had a very good trip. Thanks.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGood arguments guys. Wow, I wonder if someday people will stop adding attacks on writing style punctuation and unrelated, hurtful attacks when there is a debate going on. Come on! Its worthless and a distraction to read. It is no coincidence you see these rude attacks on almost every post - because its a weak simple argument that is easy to do when you on a virtual person on the internet. You would never say that to a person so don't type it.
ReplyDeleteThanks Security Council. I appreciate your valuable moral message. Have a great day!
DeleteOne more comment: You constantly refer to Hero movies, in which the hero makes the ultimate sacrifice, or dies, but has a "happy ending." But you're making an over-generalized statement regarding the themes and plots of all the movies. The only thing that all these movies have in common, is that there is a "hero" in each movie. That's it.
ReplyDeleteTo compare Gladiator to TDKR is like apples and oranges. First of all, Maximus has lost everything. If anything, he has nothing to look foward to, even if he were to "return to his city." His dream has always been to avenge his family, and join them in the afterlife. There is nothing in the city that he could possibly gain. He welcomes death.
Bruce on the other hand: He never once thought death would be the way out: He wanted to give up being Batman/Bruce Wayne, BUT also lead a life that Alfred had envisioned for him, which Bruce finally realizes, is actually attainable. He has something to look foward to: living a life, having a companion, possibly start a family: The opposite of Maximus.
Again, in I Am Legend: Will Smith has nothing. His family is gone, his loyal pet. He saw that he had nothing to live for, and took the plunge. His sacrifice comes as 2 birds with one stone: sacrificing for his people, but also ending the misery of his lonesome fate.
I mention the hero movies to show a connection. Batman is referred as a hero. Gordon considers Batman a hero. However, Batman uses a significant event to reveal his identity. In the last Batman film, Batman takes the fall for Harvey Dent's crimes.
DeleteWhy? I think that revealing that DA is a criminal himself/murderer adversely impacts the Dent Act. Batman realizes that it is a good opportunity to accept becoming an outcast to preserve Gotham. Gotham is safer with 1,000+ violent criminals locked up rather than released. The prisoners would probably be considered for parole after Harvey Dent is learned to be a murderer. The Dent Act would lack integrity.
Maximus never wanted to die. He could have given up after his family left. He wanted more than anything to give back Rome to the people. It's Marcus's dream to give back the city to the people - democratic. He lost everything. Maximus never planned to die in the end.
Commodus stabbed him in the lungs to weaken him - to show that he can beat this former general his father loved and the new popular Gladiator. He wanted to reunite with his family until he reclaimed his power through rising as a Gladiator. Therefore, Maximus realized that he could rejoin his army to return Rome back to the people. He loses his loyal servant, which he is apprehended again to fight again Commodus. We know that Commodus is not match for Maximus.
Commodus wounds Maximus to gain an advantage. Maximus knows that he will die, but fights to the death to honor Marcus. If he dies in the battle, then he can't give instructions to Quintus to free the slaves and return Rome to the people through Senators. I highly doubt that Maximus wants to die. He happens to die, which makes for a happy ending. He reunites with two loves (Rome+Family).
Bruce let his life spiral downward to protect Gotham. The Dent Act would become a failed legislation that could free many criminals. He would be at a disadvantage to fight crime against these criminals. Whereas he still has money, he life is a shadow of his former status (8 years ago). In the pit, Bruce is just like Maximus. Bruce lost his parents long ago and realizes that he can lose Gotham too. He gains the courage to overcome his fear to make the jump. If he had the first two jumps, he would died fighting Bane. It is his fate to make the third jump. His back is set into place. The physician shares some wisdom with him.
Will Smith has hope. He has a dog. He has memories that keep him alive to find a cure. His fate in life is to save the world. He doesn't have outside contact to determine whether people are alive. However, Dr. Neville has hope that he can find a cure. He is happy to find a cure, risking his life to deliver the cure in the process. The lady and her son take the cure to a village that can now start a new beginning.
neville takes the plunge because he knows not facing these mutated monsters would mean that they stop the cure from reaching a safe haven. If Neville could survive, he would have left. He did seal the glass around the women that proved his serum worked. His research, memories, and hope keep him alive. Even after his dog dies, he continues to live on. His fate to show immunity to the disease is not by chance. He is destined to save humanity.
And there is such a big focus on the "rope." I interpret it differently. I think the rope represents several things:
ReplyDelete1.) The rope symbolizes Bruce's complacency with everyone's expectations: Without realizing it, he puts on the rope every time he climbs, as it is expected of him: the same way everyone expects Batman to always be there, to protect the people. But once he is freed from this expectation, and refuses the rope, he is also not giving into the expectations of the people. That is what is holding him back in succeeding his goal.
The outcome of the climb would be to escape the darkness, the prison. It is the ulimate goal, to survive and do more than just rot in the darkness of the prison. Much like his life as Batman/Bruce. He life as Batman/Bruce was a prison in itself: He needed to escape the expectations of the people, his entire life as Bruce Wayne, as Batman, because he knew all it would do, is hold back on his potential to live a full life, as Alfred had told him.
2.) Every time he climbed, he used the rope, because of his fear. Much like the fear he had, of not knowing what will happen if he did abandon his life as Batman/Bruce. That's why all these years, Bruce hid in his mansion for years, never moving on, stuck, being a loner to deal with his inner demons.
3.) The issue of Bruce not fearing death: Yes, Bruce had to overcome his fear of death by refusing the rope. He will risk his life, to achieve his ultimate goal of escaping the prison, and lead his life again.
Batman's actions of taking the bomb away from the city, aesthetically, shows that he is willing to sacrifice his life to protect his city. But really, Batman saw this "sacrifice," his "death", as an opportunity to escape his life as Batman. "Retiring" or keeping out of sight will simply give keep the public hope that Batman will perhaps one day return. His death will not give the public that hope. His death however, will convince people that they need to fight for themselves, which is what Bruce wanted in the end. They, in a sense, no longer need one Batman, because everyone can be Batman.
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DeleteThanks for the great discussion.
Delete@KJpsych,
The rope has more meaning in the pit. If we look back, Bruce is not meant to make the jump. He is not ready to escape the hole - physically and mentally. Under these conditions, he puts Gotham at risk. Bane injured his back. If Bruce escape, he would attempt to fight Bane with anger. His backbone would crumble his foundation.
We see him soaring with the rope. He hopes that he can make the jump. In his mind, he is probably thinking about the fate of Gotham. There is no other person who can save Gotham from Bane. He is the only one. He fixed the autopilot probably as routine maintenance in case he needed it. It is responsible to repair the autopilot. However, the autopilot is before learning of the atomic bomb.
Without a rope is putting fate in his hands. He is like a pilot soaring into the sky to preserve fate (no autopilot). It is his fate to save Gotham. He must trust himself to reach the target in time. The mechanism of time and space is essential. If Bruce falls, he dies (cause) and the effect is Gotham falling (explosion).
His broken back has meaning. Batman fills the void that he lost when his parents were murdered. Gordon gave him hope to potentially live his fate. The coat and hero scene reminds us of this. I doubt that Bruce wanted to retire as Batman. If he could, he would have used the remote detonator to avoid having to take a drastic move such as flying the Bat plane with the atomic bomb. He spent too much time beating Bane to a pulp. He wanted the remote. He even chased after Miranda to stop her.
If Bruce had planned the events, then he would have removed the atomic bomb as quickly as possible without listening to Miranda give another speech. Batman shared his identity with Gordon to tell him what he means to Bruce. In the end, everything is spontaneous. He has less than 2 minutes to remove the bomb. He is destined to save Gotham.
The rope is a constant theme. It conveys hope and fate. In Bruce's life, hope is that previous events in his life enable to overcome his obstacles and challenges. Fate is predetermined events that lead us to an inevitable outcome (free will keeps fate alive). It is our fate to reach a dream. Without a rope is putting fate in Bruce hands in the jump and with Batman piloting the plane to save Gotham. In the prison, he protects his life to preserve Gotham. In the atomic scene, he must remove the bomb in time to save Gotham. It is his fate. Predetermined events put Bruce Wayne/Batman into the Bat plane at the right moment to save millions of people.
If he wanted to retire, then he would have done so when Alfred pleaded with him. Even so, Bruce would have left with Selina to retire. He had his chances to retire. As with sports, Michael Jordan realized that he was too old and not able to compete like in his early days. He decided to retire on the court. Bruce is not as his former self. Alfred sensed something bad would happen. He asked him to stop because he had fear of a bad outcome.
The concept that Batman chooses an escape to seek retirement does not make a good storyline. He is choosing to escape his fate as a way to enjoy the retirement he deserves.
In leading the atomic bomb out of the city, Batman has the courage to save Gotham. He believes he can. He made the jump. He is piloting the plane.
I doubt Bruce is thinking he can use this moment to retire and live his life. That does not seem like the Batman character. He is thinking about saving Gotham both in the pit and in the plane. Batman has never been a selfish hero. Alfred and Selina reminds him he needs to leave.
Just my opinion.
And as noted, if we were to be as realistic as possible: even if Batman were to use a 2nd Bat-wing to escape, the possibility of Batman dying because of his proximity to the bomb is also likely. Batman knew this.
ReplyDeleteBut Batman was willing to make that "leap," to not fear death, fear the unknown; to 1.) save the city 2.) escape from the life of Batman forever.
Worst case scenario: Batman dies
Best case scenario: Bruce lives
In both scenarios, Batman is "dead", but his legacy will live on, as mentioned above. In the best case scenario however, Bruce gets to also lead a new life and start fresh. Why wouldn't he choose the best scenario?
Your argument makes sense. However, saving Gotham is no doubt Batman’s first choice. I don't see him pondering on retirement. He is a young man that believes in his fate. It is as tough for Bruce to give up Batman as it is for Alfred to leave him. Alfred doesn’t want to watch his Master Bruce suffer.
ReplyDeleteEither way, Bruce and Batman live on as heroes. Bruce provided the orphans a great home. Batman saved Gotham. One man lived two lives. Thus Bruce died understanding his meaning in life. He had a true purpose in life, finally realizing this is the end that he accepts. Maybe Bruce confides in Blake to protect Gotham.
Most would choose the better scenario to survive (choose #2). There are some people who will go to the distance to make that ultimate sacrifice. These people won’t think twice or even look to alternatives to save another. Superheroes act on impulse to save people.
I don't think Bruce cared too much about living a better life. His story is to fill a void that he lost (parents murdered). Through crime fighting, Bruce accomplished his desire to save the city. Blake leaves the police force to do greater things. Blake is a moral man like Bruce Wayne. Blake is the rightful heir to become the next protector of Gotham.
Bruce defended his desire to serve as Batman. Alfred pleaded for him to stop. Selina told Batman to leave. On both occasions, Batman refused to stop. Bruce Wayne has always been proactive in serving the city. He left for 8 years to protect the Dent Act. Harvey Dent’s legacy could live on, even though lost his mind after Rachel died.
Batman never complained or mentioned hating to save Gotham. He didn’t request Gotham to honor him.
Batman doesn't even accept Gordon telling him he is a hero. Not once in Bruce Wayne’s mind is he thinking about using the atomic bomb to escape his life as Batman and to retire.
I agree with you about Batman's legacy will live on. In the atomic bomb climax, there is time to make retirement decisions. If Batman chooses autopilot, then he is hoping his bat plane reaches the sea in time. There is too much risk involved. Batman choosing to pilot the plane assures him that this atomic bomb makes it out to sea. That is why I believe the 5-second shot of him in the cockpit is accurate.
Gordon's The Tale of Two Cities quote suggests that a major character in the book dies knowing that their life had meaning. Gordon knows that Bruce Wayne was Batman. He does not share this secret with anyone. Blake mentioned that they don’t even know who saved him. Gordon said it was the Batman. In reality, Bruce Wayne saved Gotham city.
I would rather believe that Batman released the atomic bomb and flew as fast as he could to escape the atomic blast than him controlling the plane or bailing out long before the atomic bomb detonates. It is not in Batman's nature to abandon his fate. He doesn't need an atomic bomb to escape his life as Batman. Bane already cleared Batman’s name with reading the Gordon letter. Pondering on sacrifice and retirement create liability. Bruce/Batman accept one fate – to save Gotham City.
Batman has the free will to choose his fate. In any of these scenarios, Bruce and Batman live on. I don't think retirement has any relevance in the plot. He never spoke of wanting to give up his cape.
Thanks for all input. Good points and discussion.
Another point:
ReplyDeleteAlfred did not know that Bruce recovered the necklace from Selina, so for him, the necklace continues disappeared,that´s why they mentioned the necklace as missing at the end.
Bruce did not take the pearl necklace with him. Do you really think he would take the necklace to The Bat to be destroyed along with the bomb? You think he brought the necklace to give to Selina later? Or that Bruce disappeared at the end and then went back to get the necklace?
For me,this already debunks the theory that Bruce survived and that Selina was wearing the necklace.
Alfred imagined Bruce alive and well at the cafe, he was emotionally disturbed by the loss and that was his way of trying to ease the pain, mentalizing that Bruce is alive and happy.
Thanks for the comment.
DeleteBruce Wayne as Batman defended Gotham against criminals like Selina. No way he makes an escape to live a life in Italy with a career criminal. His parents were murdered by criminals.
I think that he wouldn't have a problem to take the necklace with him to be destroyed. It is sentimental to him. He could have been holding these pearls in his hands on his way to deposit the bomb. It is his coat to comfort him in his last moments.
I don't think he brought the necklace to give to Selina. Bruce didn't go back home just for the necklace. He recovered a Bat suit and got his Bat plane ready.
The last time Batman flew the Batman plane was to fight against Bane's men (after the Wall Street event) and to escape the police. Bane busted up his mask.
Bruce escaped the pit. Later, Bruce retrieved the Bat suit, plane, and got the pearls. He didn't want to leave the pearls in the estate to be given to another. I doubt he went back after he somehow survived a miracle atomic blast by ejecting and swimming. Even Vin Diesel's XXX wouldn't abandon an armed bomb without knowing that it is safe to abandon.
Bruce Wayne was in the Bat plane with the pearls. He died with a sentimental artifact (i.e. Titanic). Why would older Rose not tell the ship crew she had the diamond necklace? Because the pearl necklace had sentimental value that connected her to Jack, we would rather thrown them into the sea. This necklace symbolizes her heart.
I don't think Bruce gave Selina the necklace. If he did, it is not part of the plot. He is not sitting with her. Bruce never intended to escape Batman. With a broken back, Bruce tries to escape a hole to fight against a man who almost killed him.
Bruce took the fall for 8 years to keep Gotham safe. If Dent was exposed as a murderer, the Dent Act would lose credibility. It would have wiped out sentences because lawyers would use it against the DA. Bruce Wayne never wanted to leave Gotham.
Alfred didn't just imagine Bruce, it is in a dream sequence of some sort. Bruce hallucinated that he saw Rai because his vertebrae injury (extreme pain) and his stress to escape the hole (thinking about Gotham City) somehow created temporary psychosis. This is not the psychosis you will see in Black Swan or Mr. Brooks. Bruce does imagine Ra's. This foreshadows the ending scene that Alfred speaks about in the setup/development.
Do you think that Bruce survived a nuclear blast? Then, Bruce goes back to retrieve the necklace, contacts Selina, and bolts for Italian to dine on the same exact time and day as Alfred mentioned in the turning point? Lets not forget that he repaired the Bat Signal too. This all seems far-fetched.
It is harder for Bruce Wayne to follow the following chain of events than for people to accept his is physically dead:
1) Bruce bails out of the plane to take a chance on hope. He knows that autopilot he fixed long before an atomic bomb is introduced in the plot will enable him to live the life that Batman has taken from him. The Bat will safely deliver the atomic bomb outside of Gotham (seems far easier than escaping the hole - no climx is that easy to overcome).
2) After swimming the entire night in cold frigid water that can cause severe hypothermia, Bruce mysteriously returns to Wayne Maynor to retrieve the pearls.
3) He calls Selina and tells her we need to use Clean Slate to leave to Italy because Alfred will be there on this particular day
4) Bruce fixes the Bat signal to let Gordon know that Gotham is not alone
5) Nobody knows who Wayne is at the airport. Clean Slate erase human minds and digital files.
Writing this sounds really dumb. I welcome anyone to fill in the plot holes to tell the Bruce story from the moment he attaches the atomic bomb to the Italian cafe scene. Tell your story.
Thanks for commenting.
I'm going to explain why it is so difficult to debate with you.
ReplyDelete1.) Nolan is a brillant writer: therefore, it is impossible for him to write simplistic endings or explanations.
I think it's clear you put Nolan in high regard for his ability to write complex screenplays. But this in itself cannot be an argument to disregard his direction in this movie. Unless you were with Nolan in the screen writing process, you cannot simply say, "Well, Nolan would never write that, because it's too simple." What if that's what Nolan wanted? What if he wanted a simple explanation given to the audience?
2.) You consistently contradict yourself
a.) First, you say that in film, if everything is explained, it is too predictable and boring, and that it would equate to "bad writing." However, in your argument about Batman's survival, you say that if he DID survive, Nolan would've shown how Batman did it.
But THEN, with that logic, Nolan should have also then shown Alfred in a deep sleep, dreaming the happy dream.
First of all, this "dream" is something that you made up. There are no hints/clues that Alfred will have a dream about Bruce happy. Your only connection is when BRUCE had a hallucination after being physically and mentally tormented by Bane. 2 completely different scenarios/people that you cannot possibly think you can connect with.
b.) You said that "intelligent writing" would not make an ending so obvious and cliche, since showing a person surviving would be just that. However, the theme of a hero making the ultimate sacrifice is just as obvious and cliche.
3.) Your logic in some explanations, are extremely far fetched
a.) You said that Batman went to grab his mother's pearls in his mission to stop the bomb because of sentimental value?! COME ON. This whole time, Batman believed he would be able to stop Bane, even when Catwoman said it’s impossible, Batman insisted that with her help, he can do it. With his conviction, he would not have any reason to get the pearls, because he truly believed he could save the city. He didn’t need the pearls to give him motivation. If he never had to use the pearls to give him motivation, why would he now? If he succeeded, time would not be a factor: he would have more than ample time to go back to the mansion the get the pearls. It was until the last 5 minutes with the bomb, as you said, that he realized that he may have to sacrifice his life. There is absolutely no reason for him to take the pearls with him for sentimental value. For you to compare it to Titanic is an absolute insult to Batman's character and Nolan.
b.) The bag for Blake: In your logic, Batman created a Plan B (safety net) for Blake in case Batman should die. As you said, Batman never knew he would have to face a life/death situation until the last 5 minutes of the bomb, where it seemed inevitable. Take one deep breath, and imagine that the bomb scenario never happened. Would this mean that until Batman died, or retired (which could be years/another decade), Plan B would actually never happen? No. Batman made the bag for Blake when he survived the blast, and realized it was time for him to move on, be beyond Batman and Bruce Wayne.
@KJpsych,
DeleteI just don't buy the retirement and wanting to live life as a good argument. Bruce never wants to give up being Batman. He could have easily returned to crime fighting
The retirement theme is why I keep debating you. Your recent points: You say that Maximus and Robert want to die because they have nothing to live. You miss the point that these protagonists want more than their own desires.
In I Am Legend, if Robert refused to accept living on, he would end his life. He wants to find a cure. We see him going on scavenger hunts. He is treating a patient that is a zombie creature. So Robert dying in the end is a sacrifice to save the world. If Robert leaves with the woman and her child, the cure is thus compromised. Robert has immunity. He has hope. His fate is to save humankind.
Even in Blood Diamond, Leo's character realizes that Solomon deserves to leave with his child. He does not have children. He never understood love because his internal motivation had always been to make money. He is missing something that Solomon has - a family.
We can't look at these sacrificial characters as needing to die just because they have experienced trauma such as losing family. It is their fate to accomplish a dream. We have the following fate:
1) Return Rome to the people
2) Find a cure for humans
3) Give a father a new life with his family
Overusing exposition is bad writing. If Batman tells Gordon, "Commissioner, I am the Batman," it would sound silly. He knows to disguise the quote as he has done with his identity. Good writing!
It would be boring to hear writers explain everything with 80/20 dialogue. In dozens of screenwriting courses, I have heard way too much dialogue because these writers think that explaining everything in simple form is good writing. They don't use any techniques - less is more.
I can't remember exactly everything I say because I'm only one person responding to hundreds of comments on over 50 movie websites. I may contradict myself with saying one thing and then change my mind a few seconds later. I can watch TDKR on a Friday and think the obvious, but then change my mind on Saturday after reevaluating the clues.
I mentioned Bruce retrieved the pearls at Wayne Manor as a possibility. It is not the final solution. It is like a jury discussing a case. They don't have primary account of the truth. They are putting the clues together to make the best verdict. The pearls don't give him motivation. I mentioned sentimental value, not motivation and inspiration.
Titanic is just an example. To think that James Cameron is not worthy of CN's fame is an insult. The two directors/writers are on an even playing field. Both have made two movies that banked $500 million in domestic box office (pending TDKR outcome).
Bruce already decided long ago that Blake is worthy. Blake proved this with the entire Wayne Manor scene and with saving Gordon.
How did Bruce Wayne survive the atomic blast? Begin with the Miranda death scene up until the Alfred scene. Write a plot summary to fill in the plot holes.
Good writers have written bad movies (M. NIght Shayamalan - The Sixth Sense (brilliant)/The Happening (awful).
I never suggested I know the exact events. I just don't believe Bruce Wayne survived. You keep suggesting he wanted to retire. Also, Bruce Wayne moving to Italy with a criminal that he has vowed to fight against to keep Gotham safe is contradicting his moral values as a crime fighter.
It is like a physician telling a patient to never smoke because it will them, but then the patient watches this same doctor smoking a cigarette in the first floor break quad.
I appreciate your input. One day, Nolan will serve up an interview about the ending. Maybe you can give yourself a pat on the shoulder. Until then, I'm sticking with Bruce dying to save Gotham.
Nolan interview about inception ending. Check out his last answer.
Deletehttp://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/01/play/inception-director-lives-the-dream
This is inception, a movie based on dreams. TDKR is not about dreams. Don't mix it up. If Nolan never made a movie about dreams, you would not be using it as a reference.
DeleteI think if Nolan never introduced the cafe fantasy in the turning point, I would agree with all your points. Can a fantasy become reality. Sure.
DeleteAre fantasies lived out the exact way as they are described several months ago? I only mention Inception because people say this is not Inception. Therefore, Batman and Nolan fans are suggesting it is impossible to end with a dream or a fantasy.
Many viewers assumed Inception ended with a dream. However, the Inception ending is conveyed as reality. Can you think of any scenes in the previous two Batman movies that involve mind flashes, fantasy, and hallucinations? TDKR utilizes these techniques in the plot.
Thanks for the comment.
Hi Astral Writer. You said above, and I quote, that "Bruce never wants to give up being Batman". That's simply not true, in Batman Begins he told Rachael the day would come when Gotham no longer needed Batman, in The Dark Knight he tried to help Harvey Dent become Gotham's defending knight so that he could stop being Batman, and then this pays off at the end of Rises when the audience gets the huge emotional pay off knowing that after all the pain and loss he gets a happy ending with Selina. If Batman had such a problem with Selina's criminal history he wouldn't have trusted her to help him save Gotham.
DeleteAlso, I just watched this movie again tonight.
ReplyDelete1.) One of the arguments you had for your belief in the dream is that the colours in the "dream" are much brighter, and the rest of the movie is dull and dark. You do know you are comparing one of Europe's most beautiful and tourist-friendly areas with Gotham, which is currently crime-ridden and controlled by an insane warlord right? I hope there's a difference between the both of them.
2.) There is one scene where in the moments of the bomb, we see Batman's face. If you notice the lighting on his face, you will see that it seems like he is flying in an area, where the sun hits his face, is blocked by an object, and hits his face again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUT07eZoXPw
The best explanation I can give you is if a person is driving a vehicle, that is close enough to objects that are in the way of the sun, you will see a pattern of light on face/shadow/light on face/shadow.
Now, Batman was flying directly in open sea. There is nothing near him that could possibly create this consistent pattern, even if it were clouds, which, in the scene, there were next to none.
So what does this mean?
I have to remind you that in the Bat, there are 2 seats, as noted when Catwoman was seated above Batman when they were in it together. If there's any logical way Batman escaped, it could be possible that in this Batwing, there is an escape pod that can eject him out, while the auto-pilot does it's job. As soon as Batman reached near the ocean, setting the auto-pilot on a straight route should be simple, and not complicated, as it is a straight line.
It is also highly possible that this escape pod is functional on it's own: (a la Batmobile that also has a fully functioning motorcycle inside it). Is it far fetched? Even Fox had admitted that he couldn't fix the auto-pilot, and neede Bruce to possibly do it. Was it possible that Bruce also made an additional upgrade to the escape pod? With Fox's technology, it is highly possible.
Another commenter shared their color interpretation. I just reiterated the point. We also see this cafe in Alfred's narration.
DeleteI would have to watch the movie again to compare the lighting. It could be cinematic or just accidental that Batman has sunlight on his face with some shading that briefly blocks out the light.
When would Batman have ejected with this Batpod? Would he trust autopilot to deposit the bomb without any plane malfunction? Again, choosing this route is taking too much risk. He is entering the "rope" hope rather than "without a rope" to control the plane to the end (fate).
What if you faced hitting a target to save the world? You can choose to save the world and yourself, but there is no guarantee that the plan will work to save both. You know there is a high probability the plan works with saving one - the world or you. Choose the world or yourself. The most reliable option is to see the job is done right with you reaching the intended target.
Now, think from Bruce and Batman's perspective. Has Bruce ever complained that he is tired of protecting Gotham? Wanted to hang up his cape? Alfred tells Bruce to give up Batman to save himself. Selina is more selfish with her words. She even double-crossed him, knowing that her actions could mean the end of Gotham. She is the black widow from those old Film Noir films.
Would Bruce Wayne, a moral man that fights crime, leave with a former criminal? Does years of fighting crime contradict his actions if he leaves with Selina to Italy? Would you think Bruce is dead without the cafe scene? The cafe is essentially the deciding factor that sways your opinion beyond the random clues littered throughout the ending.
Thanks again for contributing.
"It could be cinematic or just accidental that Batman has sunlight on his face with some shading that briefly blocks out the light."
DeleteAccidental? Really? One of your biggest arguments is that Nolan pays attention to detail, and the last moment we see Batman in the film, ever, Nolan puts the lighting on Batman by accident? Watch it again: The lighting on Batman makes it seem like he's flying through buildings with the buildings blocking out the sun every 1.5 seconds.
There is no guarantee for anything, you're right. I believe that Batman has never feared death. What he feared most was the unknown. He was comfortable being Batman, being lonely, but it never fulfilled him. Batman finally realized this, and also found a way out (more on this later)
Every day as Batman, there was a possibility of death. He never wore a bullet proof batsuit but he faced criminals with assault rifles. He has used auto-pilot before (with the Batmobile) which could have killed bystanders (Beginning of Dark Knight) but he did it, with conviction, because was confident in his abilities, in the technology.
What's the difference with those 2 scenarios? Does 4 lives equal less than 10,000 lives? Why would Batman take the risk of killing 4 people with a Batmobile, but not of 10,000? He trusts the technology. He had 6 months to test it out, and maybe in some instances he has used it before, and he knows that it would work.
I will think in Bruce/Batman's perspective:
When he retired, he thought he was done: but he fell into a deep depression, and receded from the world. It was horrible for him. It was only until Bane came along, he found a reason to become Batman again. But as Alfred said, it would not solve the underlying issues of Bruce: He would still be depressed, alone, and obsessed with saving everyone but himself. Bruce never realized he could do more with his life because Rachel had died. He couldn't move on. Until he met Selina.
Bruce saw himself in Selina: they both had a dark past, seemingly inescapable. Even when Selina double-crossed Batman twice, Bruce kept telling her, "I know you're more than that." Why did he keep insisting? Why did Bruce continue their relationship? Because even though they are on different sides of the law, they are essentially the same: they both have to hide behind a mask: with their real profiles: Selina and Bruce, and also as Batman and Catwoman. In both instances, they were hiding themselves from the world because they were both vulnerable.
Batman saw Selina not as a criminal: but someone more than that. He knew that she was committing crimes because she needed to survive, she needed to do everything she did, to get a hold of the Cleanslate, to ultimately escape her past.
Selina desperately wanted to escape from this, and Bruce realized he wanted this too.
For Selina, it was just the Cleanslate, but for Bruce, it was that, and everything else: Bruce Wayne, everything that he owned, and also Batman. But he didn't want people to lose hope, so he staged it so that his courage, his legacy would live on.
So to answer your question: Yes, Batman has not only thought about retirement, but he's actually done it before after TDK. The problem is, once he had retired, he had no life to live because there was no one to spend it with. He realized that Selina wanted the same thing as him, which motivated him to try it one more time, regardless if she was a criminal or not, because clearly, Bruce thought she could be much more.
DeleteWhen I suggest "accidental," this suggests that when filmmakers are planning their shots or even shooting the scene, they can make continuity errors. Moreover, filmmakers may shoot a film such as Alien (Scott) and or Aliens (Cameron) where they don't intend to convey the Alien eggs as feminist theory claim as the cave acting as a female reproductive organ.
DeleteI don't have access to old film readers. Film theorists analyze the film to inform us that certain films compliment a certain pattern, motif, allegory, and etc.
I will watch the movie again to view that scene. I still film he is in the Bat heading out to sea rather than back to the city. Additional viewing is required to analyze shading and lighting.
Can The Tale of Two Cities reference suggest one character that dies having known their meaning? Gordon chooses this book to quote. He never reveals to John Blake that he knows Batman's true identity.
The autopilot repaired 6 months put the time around the beginning of the movie, maybe near the turning point. According to some, they believe Bruce is in the pit for 5 month. How long do you think Bruce is in the hole? The repair is performed long before the atomic bomb is revealed. Furthermore, another commenter stated that Bruce Wayne is not experienced to make this repair because he contracts out his work.
It is a repair that is above him. How do you think Bruce made the repair? At what point in the plot does he make this repair?
Why did he make this repair? Is it because Fox indicated that it needed to be repaired? Was this autopilot repair outsourced, as another commenter mentioned? He knew that it needed to be repaired? We know that this repair pre-dates the Bane's takeover, as this occurs while Bruce is in the pit.
I believe Bruce took the fall for Dent's crimes to preserve Gotham. They could not afford to have the Dent Act repealed. This act took violent criminals off the streets. Revealing Dent as an unstable man who snapped compromises further implementation of the Act. It thus would lack traction to fight crime. Batman took the fall to protect Gotham's legal system. In the process, Bruce's decision resulted in reduced crime and rendered his services unnecessary.
DeleteBruce still loved Rachel. When Alfred shared the letter, he was in denial that she loved him rather than Dent. It hurt him, but he seemed to get over it quickly with Miranda fling.
Bruce meets Selina stealing his mother's pearls and fingerprints. He reclaims the pearls but loses his car. Then, Selina double crosses him with having a hand in his fractured back and his imprisonment for several months.
Bruce still believes in Selina enough to start a new life? She does return to save his life and helps him to reach the atomic bomb in time. Also, she kisses him near the Bat to show her affection for him.
In your best case scenario, has Selina show enough loyalty for Bruce to consider starting a new life with her? Why her? Does Bruce really need that companionship to move forward? Alfred states, "just you, Master Bruce,"(not exact quote) to poke fun at Bruce going home alone. Bruce has shown he’s like Howard Hughes, fancying women anytime he wants.
Selina wants to escape. She didn't care about the city. She tried to convince Batman twice to save himself and go with her. Did Bruce have a change of heart while delivering the atomic bomb? Nonetheless, you are confident Batman is flying back to the city while autopilot is delivering this bomb with mere seconds left to detonation.
You think Bruce has enough time to stage his death with a few minutes left? His focus was obtaining the remote detonator. He would rather have deactivated the bomb than to take it out to sea. He authorized an autopilot repair 6 months prior, before the atomic bomb is introduced into the plot. He accepted removing the bomb after learning Miranda eliminated any chance at deactivating it.
Is Batman really thinking this is my moment to give hope to the people and using the opportunity to live a better life, a life that Batman took from him? It seems Bruce needed Batman to fill a void to have a purpose in life. He helped put away criminals to honor his parents, keep Gotham safe, to have meaning.
The internal motivation to stage Batman's death is to reclaim his lost life and to be with Selina? You mention good exposition to explain your points, but I'm looking more to another explanation.
Good points though. I will respond to your other comments as well. I appreciate the comments.
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteNo, loyalty is not the best case scenario for Selina. Bruce saw himself in Selina: a disturbed soul with a dark past in which they both want to desperately escape from. Being a "hero" in Bruce's case was no different than of Selina, who was a "criminal." Both are bound by a set of societal expectations, they are constantly under public scrutiny and the results of either lives are the same: They become isolated, physically and emotionally tortured.
DeleteSelina in a sense, saw herself as she saw the city: un-savable. No man can save her as she depended on herself. Bruce challenged Selina to do more than what was expected of her because he wanted to prove to her that the city is worth saving, and in essence, her life was worth saving, and that she no longer has to be alone anymore.
Selina's actions showed that she had hope in those words, when she came back to save Batman, even when she had let him down so many times before. Bruce had never let her betrayal affect him, as he always followed the philosophy of picking himself up, whenever he was down. My interpretation from that philosophy, is to never place blame on your downfalls, but to become stronger from the experience.
Bruce knew that Selina was just like him: always wearing a mask (either as Batman/Bruce). He wanted to challenge to become more: but indirectly, he was also challenging himself. The fact that Selina saved Batman from Bane, gave Bruce hope that he can also do the same, but he hasn't yet. This is a woman that understands him, regardless of her flaws. If there's one woman that can understand his inner struggles, it's Selina. Bruce is not taking a chance when he goes to Italy with Selina. He has been taking a chance on Selina from day 1.
In the grand scheme of things, we still have to accept that this is a movie. In movie reality, for Batman to orchestrate an escape plan spontaneously is not far fetched at all if he has all the technology in the world at his disposal.
What purpose would the auto-pilot serve for Batman? Auto-pilot has always been the real "side-kick" for Batman. He trusted the technology to take on tasks for him, in the face of danger (TDK, fighting Scarecrow, saving/arresting the fake Batmans). If Alfred is gone, no one would be there to save him during his most vulnerable times(as Alfred did in BB, when Batman was incapacitated). He wanted insurance that something will save him in the end if he ever encountered a life/death situation. Thus, he was motivated to fix the auto-pilot. I believe he would place his complete trust in the Batwing.
@KJay,
DeleteStrong points!
I would think Batman wasting too much time trying to coerce Bane into giving up the remote detonator conveys he has no plan.
After Miranda dies, there is very little time remaining on the bomb. We watched Bruce Wayne as his lowest point(pit). He felt helpless.
It leads me to believe that facing making a major decision whether to save the city or himself require making a sacrifice.
I wouldn't think Batman would risk autopilot on possible failure. We see Bruce get frustrated trying to escape the pit. He knows the risk in failing. If he fails, many die.
Maybe I'm looking too far into the rope symbolism. It seems to fit the theme that you must put fate in your own hands to ensure a reliable outcome.
If Bruce Wayne contracted the service or somehow gained the skill to make the autopilot repair, then how reliable is the autopilot to escort a powerful bomb outside of the city? There is no room for error.
What is the capability of the autopilot? Can the autopilot maneuver? Or is the autopilot only capable of flying in a straight line? I only ask because in the scene that we see the Bat plane fire missiles at the building, it has to make a turn to fly out to sea.
The skyline is facing the bridge, where Blake and the orphans are waiting. Therefore, the Bat plane would need to turn right to fly out to sea. Blake washes the atomic explosion from the left side of the bridge. After the explosion, he tosses his badge.
Thanks for your Batman movie analysis. Great discussion.
Therefore, Batman, in those moments, was flying back into the city.
ReplyDeleteSomebody would have reported him flying back to the city. Not that easy to fly back to the city without anyone seeing the plane. We would know about a special pod he contracted to be built into the Bat.
DeleteGood analysis. However, I still believe he died in the blast. We could believe in this alternative. But for the most part, I believe we get what we see with the Bat technology. No hidden surprises.
Thanks.
To answer your first question:
DeleteThe city was in ruins. Everyone was hiding: you saw that. Until the blast went off, everyone was hiding in their house. Cops and the thugs were fighting each other at city hall. Not a soul in sight except for the kids on the bus and the cops
on the bridges.
"How did Bruce Wayne survive the atomic blast? Begin with the Miranda death scene up until the Alfred scene. Write a plot summary to fill in the plot holes."
Batman could have easily escaped by setting the Batwing into autopilot when he was still near the city, which explains the consistent "shadow/light/shadow/light" lighting on Batman's face, which would indicate he is near buildings.
Once the bomb is carried out, Batman goes back to the mansion to pack up all his things, including his prized pearl necklace.
Your biggest misconception is that you believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is that a day after the bomb, Alfred goes to Italy, and Batman flies straight to Italy, to appear before him.
This is not how it goes. They showed that the mansion was being taken over, the transformation of the mansion into an orphanage. How long will that take? Months? 1/2 a year? Making that sign, saying the mansion is donated by the Wayne family, that alone would take weeks. Time has passed, before Alfred takes a vacation. Bruce has probably taken off with Selina, in Italy already. If you're wondering how, without his passport, let me remind you that in TDK, Batman was able to kidnap the Chinese accountant in Hong Kong, under the guise that he was chilling out with the Russian ballet group on a cruise.
Bottom line is, Batman/Bruce has a method to go to anywhere if he wanted, as the Joker knows, "he has no jurisdictions."
Now, your biggest argument of all, is that Selina is not the focus in the cafe scene. In who's eyes?
We can view this scene objectively, or through Alfred's eyes.
Through Alfred's eyes, I completely 100% agree with you, Selena is not the focus. Alfred probably doesn't even notice her, because his focus is, "Bruce finally made it."
Objectively, we see that Selina is with Bruce, which proves it is reality for several reasons:
1.) As mentioned, several times: Alfred has only made contact with Selina once when she was a maid at the party. How many maids were there that night? How many women has Alfred been in contact with since that night, associated with Bruce? There is no reason for Alfred to dream of Selina. There was no romantic tie that Alfred was aware of at all. Remember,the bigger picture is that Alfred sees that Bruce has found a woman that would fulfill his life: to move on from being Batman. That woman is extremely important, is it not? To influence a man so determined to be a hero, to finally move on?
Why did Nolan decide to place Selina in the scene? As mentioned ad nauseam, Bruce has finally found a woman that understands him. A woman that Bruce understands. They both want a better life, to escape their past, and move on. Bruce is now satisfied, because he knows there is Blake, who is worthy to take his place.
I would agree with you that the cafe scene is a dream, on some conditions:
1.) If the woman had her back to Alfred, and we do not know her identity. If the focus was truly on Bruce, it would not matter who that woman was. The fact that it was Selina, is not a coincidence. Otherwise, Nolan would not have placed her in there.
2.)If the scene ended with just Alfred nodding. It would have been the perfect ending, and I would not be arguing with you right now. It would be ambiguous enough to get the audience to question, whether or not he really saw Bruce sitting there, by himself, or with a wife and kids.
I agree everyone was hiding, even Foley. He decided to rejoin his fellow officers to fight. He died.
DeleteDarkness took over the city. It was like the people lost hope. It can be motivation to establish hope.
I understand the element of time. I know that reading a will and testament takes time. It can take months to set things into motion. I don't believe the ending taking place in two days. The entire movie spans nearly a year. The notion that I believe the events to take place in a few days is misconstrued.
I have written a dozen screenplays, provided script coverage, and also read dozens of screenwriting books over a decade. I took over 20 advanced screenwriting at UCSB, De Anza, and Solano. Unless time is noted (Crash movie), then we can identify that such events occur over time.
If Bruce survived the atomic blast, it would be too random for him to escape with Selina to Europe the next day. It is too quick. I read your "correct me if I'm wrong" mention. No worries.
What point do you believe Batman set the autopilot? He does shoot missiles at a few skyline buildings to make a hole. Do you believe he is still in the Bat plane then? At what point does he escape the Bat plane? You suggest that he is flying back to the city rather than away with the bomb.
I realize Batman kidnapped the Chinese accountant in the previous TDK. It is within his reach.
TDKR has already established that it is fiction as well. An atomic bomb explosion would cause massive tidal. If a volcano mountain top erupts in western Africa, it can send a tsunami toward NYC in a matter of 8-10 hours. An atomic explosion several miles out will create tidal waves. I understand Batman is just a comic book and a movie character. Nolan has established his Batman movies as realism.
My argument is that dreams are not what they seem. Just because a person dreams about a person of reality, people are suggesting Alfred must dream about a real another woman to render the scene a dream. Not true. Unless we are lucid dreaming, we have no idea how our dreams begin and where they end. Of course, we realize an end to nightmares.
You show more valid points. However, you still think that Alfred can't dream about Selina. If Alfred dreams, fantasizes, or even has a last thought, he must dream about another woman that does not love him (Rachel).
I give you credit for filling in the plot holes. You're thinking as a filmmaker and as a writer.
It seems that Nolan wants to be ambiguous with including Selina with the pearls. As another filmmaker analyzed the ending, although he mentions the majority group think Bruce is alive, he can't suggest whether Bruce is actually alive through this Alfred end scene. You can read his comment on Batman ending explained article.
I would have preferred to see your option #2 movie end. That would have been a good ending. It would be like creating ambiguity with a motif to make us think.
Do you think Cafe scene is too cliche? To make clues so obvious, and then to show Bruce? I'm still leaning toward he died. Your theories are well-supported to create doubt in others.
Thanks for the great comments. It helps many others.
I'm surprised you are still willing to debate with me. It seems like we've been doing it for awhile...but I must admit you're taking it in good stride.
DeleteOne thing I also realized. When Bane stormed the Wayne underground, why didn't they use the Batwing? Surely it couldn't have been hidden so well, that they couldn't access it? So this brings me to my next point.
In the one scene with Fox and the engineers, they were sitting in one, which indicates that there was at least more than 1 Batwings in existence.
Perhaps Batman had several (at least 2 Batwings) around in the city, that he put around in the city, for easy access.
Let's not argue about Batman's ability to make the sacrifice for one second. Let's talk about the plausibility and possibility of Batman escaping.
The theory I have: Perhaps when he was still in the city, he called upon the 2nd Batwing (since it can auto-pilot) and jumped into it before setting his original Bat-wing onto its course. That would explain the lighting on Batman's face, since the original Batwing is carrying it away, while he is flying back into the city.
It's great that you've done many screenplays, and whatnot, but to be very honest, that still means nothing. It also doesn't matter if you bring in dream analysts who may agree and support your points, because there are just as many other dream analysts and other screenwriters who may disagree with you.
@KPpsych,
DeleteYour theory makes sense. When we see Batman in the Bat plane with about 5 seconds remaining, he is actually flying away from another direction.
Do you remember the quick shot (cockpit) well enough to determine whether water or buildings are surrounding him (outside the window)? If I believed that Bruce survived, then it is possible that Batman escapes in another Batwing.
What about your second Bat pod theory? Which escape measure you think is more plausible? The second Batwing or a Batpod?
As for the screenwriting, I only mentioned it this past time to show my understanding of time and space. Figuratively speaking, I realize the post-atomic events are drawn out over months.
Without viewing the movie a second and possibly third time, I can't be so sure the visuals, dialogue, and lighting. I remember underlying themes, albeit they are my personal perception rather than the final conclusion.
We can't expect the ending to explain everything. I feel like the ending is constructed this way to increase interest. The Woman in Black ending, Intruders, and Chernobyl ending make people think of possible theories.
Do you think Blake knows that Gordon is aware of Batman's true identity? I feel like Blake wanted Gordon to say Bruce Wayne instead of the Batman.
No dream expert will have all tne answers. We don't have answers of Alien existence, life after death, and sleep analysis. We all dream. There is no rule to suggest this Batman movie can't feature a dream ending. We see Alfred's mind flash. Ra's is portrayed as a hallucination.
I mentioned dream analysis because most reject the notion since they think it is possible for Alfred to dream about a real life woman. He may have come in contact with Selina at the party without knowing her. His subconscious will remember her portrait. Therefore, Alfred realizes that Bruce may be drawn to Selina.
We don't know what Alfred is doing? We never follow him, even when he leaves Wayne Manor. I agree many people disagree with me. However, I don't believe in the obvious clues that need to served up in unison(throwing them in our face) to indicate Bruce alive.
Are the Nolan's trying to satisfy us with showing the major characters close their endings? Fox? Gordon? Blake? Selina? It is almost as if we have to see these characters find one specific clue to reveal Bruce is alive. The ending is like watching the Crash movie. An ensemble cast of characters must experience closure - whether good or bad.
You watched the movie twice. If I can purchase another movie ticket, I think watching the movie a second time can explain the ending better. The plot holes are implied rather than stated. You shared a few theories to fill in the gaps. These are plausible to explain the ending.
I still want to discuss the ending. It is good reflect back to the beginning to locate themes.
You know Batman very well. Good discussion. I agree that most dream analysts and screenwriters may disagree with me. I think the fascination with movies is that you can look to possible endings, especially the filmmakers reveal there is no right or wrong interpretation.
Thanks again for contributing. Excellent job plotting the ending to put Bruce in Italy with Selina.
@KJpsych,
DeleteI actually thought of the exact same thing. After the ending we had in Inception, I thought ending off TDKR with Alfred just looking off in one direction and then a big 'THUD' would have been perfect.
Then again, there would have most likely have been another director's cut, just like there was for Inception.
Inception is reality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DquWlDM9bks&feature=related
The Dark Knight Rises...
(We may never know)
Lol. I don't thnik italian people would recognize him. Or they would just think he looks like him...if someday they have the idea to search pics of rich people in Gotham City.
ReplyDeleteBut honestly, not everyone knows Bill Gates's head and I don't think in the reality you will notice his head. I will because he is georgeous and handsome (for me), but anyway, Italy is not so close ; they don't know the names of these people. Why should them?
The president, maybe, at least the princes. (actors too, lol). That's all. And Bruce was in his manor for years. People would have forgotten him.
Alfred is not so sad that he's dreaming. It's really Bruce.
Nothing is "poorly written". It's just the way Alfed dreamt.
@Chocolat,
DeleteI suppose Italian would not know Bruce Wayne. Since the media covered Bane reading Gordon's resignation letter to the media, we feel the atomic exploding outside of Gotham City makes worldwide news.
Bruce Wayne's death is newsworthy. Italian media cover American news that is major. No city besides 1945 events were confronted with an atomic bomb. It has to make the world news unless Gotham is a standalone city in Batman movies.
Bruce Wayne has moral values to fight up against the same criminals as Selina. I doubt Bruce leaves to Europe with a career criminal. He would be contradicting his values to fight crime. The murder of his parents inspired him to fight crime.
People don't forget the rich. It is easy for them to reclaim their status with functions. Although Bruce Wayne disappears for 8 years, he does this to protect Gotham City.
Revealing Harvey Dent's crimes to Gotham would have given lawyers fuel to fight denied paroles. No way Batman could defend Gotham against a thousand criminals. Gotham would become an utter nightmare.
You can be happy in your dreams. I had several dreams last night that were lucid. They were too real, but I didn't control them like in the past. I let my dream take its course.
I intend to have a few dream experts discuss dream analysis to convey that we don't control the people in them. The main emphasis is not placed on Selina. Putting Rachel in the dream then makes thee dream imagery obvious. We wouldn't be debating the dream if Rachel or Miranda is in the dream.
Nothing is obvious. It is intended to make us think beyond mass belief. We have to put the clues together. Some clues are to give us hope.
I can sleep tonight and have an extremely happy dream of winning an Academy Award for Best Screenplay, while in reality I'm having a struggling waking life. It does not mean I want to dream about good or bad. Dreams are dreams until we decide to activate them into bringing about lic dreaming, OBE, and even astral projection. We may dream right before dying.
There are near-death-experience cases that confirm dreaming of the light. Is seeing the light possible since we are programmed to believe in spirituality?
I think Bruce is physically dead. However, his good deeds don't go unnoticed. The orphans, Blake, and Gordon know the truth about Bruce Wayne.
Thanks for your comment. Greetings from the East Coast.
Delete
What I find most irritating is people attacking these articles based on grammar and poor writing. They use this trick to sidetrack visitors.
DeleteI am of the opinion that Batman got off the Bat Plane after that scene where the bomb/reactor thingamagig was weighing the plane down. So he got off at the tallest building (that scene where the plane struggled to lift the bomb before a tall building) and set the plane on autopilot to the middle of the ocean. Then using the device he left Catwoman with, the one which can erase their histories/records, he and Selina started a new life together since she did invite him to come with her. Riding Batman's bike, with the tunnel now open (the one Catwoman blasted open), then they then quietly left Gotham City.
ReplyDelete@Banggi,
DeleteThat is actually good evidence. The atomic bomb weighed down the Bat plane. He did hit a post.
Once Batman and Catwoman leave Gotham City, they would have to visit Wayne Manor to retrieve the pearl necklace, make a bag for Blake, and fix the Bag signal.
I'm not sure how long after the explosion that Wayne's private funeral took place. We can look at the Bat signal, pearl necklace and the bag as major clues. At what time and how did Bruce accomplish fixing the Bat signal, preparing the bag, and retrieving the pearl necklace. The top clue that most identify with is the autopilot fix.
Good points. Thanks for commenting.
Hey you guys....
ReplyDeleteBatman is dead... but Bruce Wayne lives. Like one commenter has already said... this is not Inception. We see the Bat and bomb explode. We see Bruce Wayne's funeral. There are tears, especially from Alfred. At this moment, I really do think that no one knows that he's still alive. In later scenes, we see that auto pilot was fixed by Bruce. The expression on Fox's face automatically says that Bruce is alive. We see the bat signal fixed (which was destroyed in 2nd Batman movie) and the expression of Gordon's face says that Bruce is alive. Robin Blake has coordinates to the Batcave (really, how did he get those) and now he may become the next Batman/Robin, who knows. And the cafe scene.... I'm sure Bruce has spoken with Alfred some time before Alfred sees him and Selena at the table. Alfred is not shocked to see him there at all... He sees Bruce just enjoying his life, possibly with the woman he loves... no more Batman. End of movie... end of an awesome trilogy.
@Primetime3000,
DeleteInception ends with reality. Nolan stated this in a Wired.co.uk interview. Michael Cain also indicated Inception does not end in a dream.
We need the main characters to have their moments. Fox, Gordon, Blake, and maybe Selina have closure. I still believe that these are clues to establish hope.
We don't know the exact moment Bruce prepared the bag. Blake already earned respect after the movie setup and with saving Gordon's life. I would think Bruce trusts Blake, as these characters are two peas in a pod.
Alfred not being shocked could suggest this is not reality. I just see an emotional funeral, and then Alfred and Bruce coexisting in the same environment. It is almost like serving up a happy ending just because it must end with closure.
I agree with you that these three Batman movies are awesome. Thanks for contributing. Good explanations.
just a short note to butt in. I personally think Bruce survived and it's not a dream. U can go on forever arguing, but if ur looking at a plausible reason for him to do so, i think it's Selina. In the final moments, when Bruce/Batman was busy deciding to fly the bomb over with his Batwing, Selina asked him "....set it to fly it over the water and eject?" to which he replied "No autopilot". I believed there and then he was already probably either 1) planning to commit suicide, thus the lie or 2) he was lying cos he was already planning his own death faking plans
ReplyDeleteRegardless, in that quick moment, as Selina and Batman were striding along, she seem to mumble and asking why he chose to come back despite having the opportunity to go anywhere and be anyone, and u can see in that split moment, he stops and slowed down to comfort Selina by saying "So did u.." and thats when she gave him a passionate kiss, albeit a quick one. But with her arms swung to cradle his head. To me, that's VERY significant, as she couldnt let him go AND perhaps to Batman, thats when he decide that this woman is worth living for.
Nonetheless, thats MY take and well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I agree with kjpsych that bringing in your credentials of countless scriptwritings, dream analysis DOES NOT work for this argument becos ur not Nolan :)
Hi Fennie,
DeleteGood points. Of course, I agree that using too much exposition to explain a motivation behind a scene is too cliche. I'm looking at possibly theories. I don't believe Bruce survives.
Batman and Selina have chemistry. Are we supposed to believe Batman ejects from the Bat in the city to call upon another Bat? In this time, the Bat is flying out to sea with a 6 megaton atomic bomb with no room for error. Batman faked his death to give Gotham hope another will follow in his footsteps?
The last question seems plausible. Suggesting that Batman is thinking of retirement is questionable. I disagree Bruce is searching for a way to escape Batman.
You make good points. I think you misunderstand why I mentioned my scriptwriting experience. KJPsych indicated that my biggest misconception is that I think all these sequence of events happen in a day. I shared my scriptwriting experience to reflect upon time and space. I know the movie spans nearly a year. The last will and testament can take months.
Thanks for commenting.
i just went to watch the movie again for the 3rd time! (cant believe i did that, but a fren said she hasnt watch and i volunteered to go with)
ReplyDeleteI did notice 2 things i didnt in the first 2x i watched. Sharing with u here (again) why i STILL think Nolan meant for Bruce Wayne to survive and NOT a dream:
1) It was when Bruce reunited back with Fox and checking out The Bat. Fox was casually asking Bruce about the Bat "Does it fly okay?" Pay attention to Bruce's facial expression then. He paused (like pondering if he should say what he said next) and purposefully said "Yah...even WITHOUT the autopilot" of which Fox replied, "Autopilot? Thats what ur there for"
I think this points to Bruce ALREADY contemplating faking his death. We cannot say Bruce/Batman doesnt know he'll end up carrying the bomb out by the Bat. He's Batman, he thinks of everything, every possible way, and maybe in his mind, carrying the bomb out by the Bat is his LAST option, first being reconnecting it back to the generator. Which explains why he sprung into action immediately aft Talia died. Becos he already got this plan B in his mind. And with the way Selina responded. PErhaps thats when he included her in his plan (fetching her after? no one would know)
2) This most people have brought up and argued. But it's my first time watching it myself. The pearl necklace on Selina's neck when Alfred spotted them at the cafe. (which he specifically described earlier) I believed Nolan made Selina wear that for a purpose (immediately after the lawyer commented the pearl is lost)
As for your points of HOW Batman ejected himself. I think i've read somewhere about the Bat being a 2/4 seater? Shown clearly when Selina jumps into the Bat during a fight with Bane at the rooftop. Lots of people argued saying if he's to eject people would be able to see him ejecting and even if he does eject without people spotting him in the ocean, then how can he escape the 6 miles radius of the blast if he falls into the oceam? If there's a possible way to explain, rem when he shoots thru the building to emerge thru with the bomb? And the kids on the school bus was yelling "No, it's Batman!!" ? Perhaps that was when he ejected himself! That wold explain how when the cam panned back to his face, there're shadows covering his face cos the one he's in was still flying thru the city of Gotham and the other one (which people was seeing) was carrying the bomb out into the ocean. Just like what Selina has suggested earlier.
Bruce WAS not searching for a way to escape Batman but he's finding a way for Bruce. I dont think he intentionally search for a way to escape Batman but more like how he can live his life as Bruce himself. If there're more time, usually in films, as they focus on Batman's face, perhaps there would flashbacks on what Alfred told him (that he should go live his life) and Selina telling him he has given everything to "these" people. Perhaps if these flashbacks are shown, then people would be more than ready to accept that he indeed want to have his life outside of Batman, but by doing that, it would be too cheesy and cliche, and that's not Nolan's style, so we have it this way.
Rem also, that when Alfred suggested for him to move on, he told Alfred that he already found a woman outside of his life as Batman, but he lost her of which he later discovered rachel DID move on with his confrontation with Alfred. So later, with his talk with the doctor in the pit, and Selina's acts, he realised he really CAN move on WITHOUT Batman, and thus his decision to pass on the Bat cave to Blake.
@Fennie,
DeleteGood coverage on the plot.
The clues leading up to the Italian cafe scene give moviegoers hope that Bruce Wayne survives. In revealing the clue, we have enough information to create hope. However, showing the cafe scene is out of place. Moviegoers don't need so many clues along with revealing Bruce to confirm he is alive.
You begin to think this Alfred cafe scene is anything but real. Another who has watched the movie several times noted that Selina is not wearing the exact same pearls. Compare the pearl necklace to the cafe pearls to rule out.
Black Swan theory suggests that people only want to see what is psychological there in plain sight. If they see pearls, they automatically connect them to the missing pearls. Are they the same exact pearls?
The Alfred narration about the cafe and Bruce's happiness resembles the ending. It is too similar, albeit not exactly as he describes.
Rope symbolism is strong, an allegory to bridge the first, second and third act. The film opening shows a hijacked plane falling to ground hide the fact Dr. Pavil dies in the explosion.
Second time we see a rope is in the pit. The rope conveys losing fear, which Bruce does to escape without a rope. As a result, Bruce is viewed as a person that will put the fate of Gotham into his own hands.
A line carries an atomic bomb out to sea. Batman makes the ultimate sacrifice to deliver the bomb on target to meet his end.
Last rope shows up in the end, with Blake swinging inside the Bat Cave to begin a new chapter.
I think people want an obvious woman such as Rachel in the chair next to Bruce to validate the dream. To show the obvious is deliberately employed as a film device to make us think. The cafe scene is interpreted two ways - Alfred is dreaming or the scene is reality.
Alfred's subconscious mind remembers all people at the Wayne party. Selina worked that night as a maid. Alfred cracks a joke to Bruce, telling him to invite her for coffee. He knows the necklace is missing. Bruce never said anything about recovering the pearls.
Good discussion. You shared some great points. Thanks for contributing.
And oh, for those people who claims if what Alfred is seeing is NOT a dream but a reality, why did he not hug Bruce or whatever, but register the look of Alfred's face. Right aft Bruce nodded and smiled at him, Bruce lowered down his gaze, and Alfred understood that and immediately bowed his head and take leave. U can see he was on the verge of tears but he (as usual) understood Bruce's action and his need for anonymity, so he got up to leave.
ReplyDelete@Fennie,
DeleteGood summary of the mood. The scene can play out that it's a dream or it's reality. Alfred cried at the funeral. He was hurt beyond words.
If this movie ended with the cafe scene that conveys to us that Bruce survives, most moviegoers would produce emotion. The majority of viewers siding with Bruce is alive identify the ending as the transition from crime fighter/wealthy to an ordinary man trying to enjoy his life with a woman who is also escaping her dark past.
The movie doesn't end on this scene. It advances forward to show Blake rising. Are two characters rising? Or does one end become a new beginning?
Thanks for sharing your perspective of the cafe scene.
Well, sorry for my english :)
ReplyDeletewhen i saw the movie, i also thought for some moments that actually batman died, however, the only reason to think he died, is the scene in wich batman have 5 seconds- he had like what? 1m45 secs?, the bomb was going to affect 10 km if i remember, the bat then had to fly at 1000km/h for 36 seconds, to secure gotham, he probably used 50 seconds to leave it more than enough, then 50 another seconds to leave..enough, and have the last 5 seconds to do his face of..."damn, its going to explote now". that could be a solution, but that doesnt solves the auto pilot scene.
but why do i think he survived, and pretend to died?
well, remember the scene in wich he says to fox "the auto pilot still isnt working!" and fox says "you dont need auto pilot", i think there is one key, a clue. its more than obvious that bruce knew the auto pilot was fixed, because the scene in wich fox finds the auto pilot was fixed etc. the coffe scene, we can see selina face, and alfred never knew that selina was catwoman in the movie and my final point (there are more but im lazzy ^^). if u read comics, there is an ending of batman, that its pretty similar to this movie, the nuclear bomb taken out of the city, (in batman vs superman) and the marriege between catwoman and batman, when batman retires and is only bruce wayne, but lives in other country, so nobody knows he is still alive.
oh and btw, batman and catwoman have a daughter ^^, i have to say this nolan movies were awesome, very good adaption of the comics, to make them fit in 7 hours
Delete@Adan,
DeleteYou made some valid points. Good detective work. It makes sense to think of Bruce faking his death to escape Batman. The Batman movies are somewhat consistent with the comic books.
In Miller's The Dark Knight, Alfred dies. Bruce lives. There is a possibility that Alfred may be dreaming of Bruce at his last moment. People suggest a person will never think about another person in their last moments. We have to remember Alfred grieving at Bruce Wayne's private funeral.
Batman and Catwoman having a daughter is interesting.
Your English is very good. I understand your points. Great work.
who says the café scene is "alfreds dream"? i would rather think of it as bruce waynes final moment, the light at the end of the tunnel, his idea of heaven (wich would explain the bright lightning)
ReplyDeleteit would also explain why selina is there (wich would not make sense if it was alfreds dream) and why she is wearing his mothers necklace.
@Olliie,
DeleteThe Italian cafe scene doesn't have to be real. It can come from imagination or even convey our desire to see Bruce happy through Alfred. Selina is in the scene just because, almost like a fixture. Perhaps seeing her in the scene makes most think it is reality.
Last week, I mentioned the cafe scene could be Alfred's last moment imagining Bruce's happiness. Another commenter said I was reaching too far.
Your theory is effective with us watching Bruce's final moment, maybe how he perceives it through Alfred. We were never given the obvious imagery during the last scene. That is an interesting idea.
Good points. Thanks for contributing!
Its also worth pointing out that during the film, when alfred first mentions his dream, he points out that he and bruce would "pretend like they didnt see each others" but in the ending you can clearly see him leaving his chair, walking thowards bruce.
ReplyDeleteanother quote thats worth bringing up is that when bruce first returns to batman, he asks alfred something like "what do you fear? that im going to die?" and alfred replies something among the lines "On the contrary, that you wont".
@Olle,
DeleteGood quotes to consider. It provides another theory to the fate of Bruce. I liked your Bruce Wayne final moment theory.
Thanks for commenting.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYet on the contrary, what was the point of the whole discovery of the autopilot scene if bruce really died? seems like a waste of film time that would have been cut out if BW really died, unless Nolan really wanted to make it more of an open ending.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine who is a comic geek pointed out that the Dark Knight Rises borrows a lot of visual and story elements from famous Batman comics such as The Dark Knight Returns and Death in the Family - And the movie has a very similar ending to Dark Knight Returns where you think Batman is dead, but really he has faked his death as you see him in the end, for reasons that would be similiar to those in TDKR; he wanted to live a normal life without the hatred and endless desire for vengeance that the batsuit represented. The Dark Knight Rises echoes this perfectly with some scenes that almost match some of those in the comic book The Dark Knight Returns. It would make total sense if Bruce Wayne realized that alfred (and selina) was right, that he had given the city everything already and the batman costume was becoming more of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde-Esque Persona to vent his sorrow and hatred, and that he had to leave his obsession with fighting crime as a way to revenge for the death of his parents and move on with his life and create his own family, because that was probably what his parents would have wanted for their son, to see him happy, not clinging on to the past.
Batman obviously dies (but is reincarnated through Blake)but the circumstances surrounding bruce waynes fate is up for debate
If we debate that Bruce survives, your theory makes sense to explain internal motivation. External motivations is obvious saving the city.
ReplyDeleteIf we go with this theory, then Bruce is using the atomic ending as a vehicle to escape his duty.
The autopilot is a clue that gives most moviegoers hope. They believe Bruce uses the autopilot. However, would a person who is willing to risk their life jumping out of a hole think about finding a way to retire and live their life.
What happens when retirement is not enough? They want to reengage again. Giving Blake the bag is like passing the torch to the next person. I believe in Miller's Dark Knight, Alfred dies in the ending.
Morally, your points make sense. Bruce's actions in the hole paint him as a person willing to sacrifice his life to save Gotham. Whereas the autopilot is mentioned, we can look at Batman choosing to abandon using it. It was never repaired to dispose of the atomic bomb.
It just happened to be fixed 6 months ago. The audience and Fox hope Bruce Wayne saved himself.
You have a good ending to your job with that we must debate the fate of Bruce Wayne. Very good! Thanks.
look, i know this thread is so old and supp to be left as it is. But i feel compelled to add more POVs that it's a CLEAR CUT thing that Bruce DID NOT die vs ur view of saying he might/might not be dead...as i've just went to watch it for the 4th time.
ReplyDelete1) Note that when Bruce went into the pit, he doesnt fear death, as Bane puts it, in fact "He welcomes it". But when he climbed out of the pit, the pit doc has already told him that he NEEDS to have the fear of death (and not just being angry) in order to make the jump (hence without the rope) . He said, make the jump, the fear will find u. I believe, AFTER the jump, Bruce has came to appreciate life. He's a REBORN man. He looks forward to life.
2) When Batman faced Bane during the all-out fight, Bane stopped to ask him "So, u came back to die with your city" to which Batman replied "NO (very firmly) i came to stop u" So dying is NOT his intention. U cant say he doesnt foresee carrying the bomb out to the bay, like i have said earlier, Batman/Bruce thinks of EVERYTHING. i'm sure flying it out via the autopilot was ONE of his many plans to stop Bane.
3) U mentioned something about Alfred being devastated. (the funeral scene) and that it's possible he is dreaming about it. And yes, u go on and on to drive this point across (even bringing in dream analysts) that the scene at the cafe is a dream sequence of alfred's being so heartbroken and wishing he had done better. I think not. First and foremost, Alfred has NEVER said he always DREAM of Bruce living a separate life other than Batman. What he said is that EVERY YEAR he takes AN ACTUAL vacation to this particular fav cafe and that he has this FANTASY that he would spot Bruce there. Note also when he said these words, the cam pans to show he's sitting down and then he looks around. To search for Bruce's face. Fast forward to after Batman's "sacrifice". As previous postings has pointed out, u made the mistake of thinking events unfold was a matter of days when it could have been a matter of months. Cam showed Wayne Manor being rebuilt for orphans home. Sales proceeds to be left for Alfred. Note Alfred's facial expression then. He is NO LONGER heartbroken. Nor does he look like a tortured soul vs him at the funeral then. He looks determined. And stable. Erm, not exactly someone to dream about what u said he's dreaming. So he took the sales proceeds and went for his usual holiday at his fav city at his fav cafe. And also note MOST importantly, when he sat down. He DID NOT look around for Bruce. He wasnt looking. He has accepted his death hence the surprised look on his face when he spotted Bruce. With Selina. And the pearls. I dare say it's the same pearls. yes, it is. Rem also this character Alfred, is a very composed man. Nothing surprises him even with Bruce's returning from dead and starting Batman last time. He's NOT that breakable.
I'm arguing not from symbols like u do (ropes, dreams etc) but from evidence of sequences in the movie.
P/s and what is wrong with 2 beginnings?? Why must it be one ends and one begins. If u must, then it's Bruce's end time to be Batman and Blake taking the cape/cave up (and Gotham) as his responsibility.
But at the end of the dat, Bruce LIVES. That is not an assumption. It simply is the fact.
Thank you
@Fenny,
DeleteI disagree that Bruce is alive. Nolan makes his artsy movies. Your facts are based on hypothesis. Batman beat Bane to a pulp to coerce him into giving up the remote detonator. He is not thinking about the autopilot. He even deceived Catwoman about not having autopilot.
Alfred's quote shows evidence to the dream/fantasy/imagination. Nolan gives the audience a glimpse of Bruce through Alfred's mind. It can viewed this way because the plot calls for it. The clues are there to identify that hope rather Bruce surviving is the main theme.
The ending with the platform rising and The Dark Knight Rises shows us a new beginning. In the previous scene, we see a legend end.
If you great answers, get into a debate with the commenter on this article. They've provided excellent points on three comments.
http://www.filmending.com/2012/08/would-christopher-nolan-end-batman.html?showComment=1344531424826#c540561585663003144
Thanks for contributing to this website.
See, this is the one thing you fall back on: Nolan is a creative writer. He could never write something so simple!
DeleteYou make statements as if they are fact. But no, they are also hypothesises. You see what's on the screen as fact (even though you criticize other people for it.) First of all, it is debatable what Batman said to Catwoman: "No, autopilot" or "No autopilot". Also, it doesn't mean he said it to trick Catwoman. Maybe he wanted to trick everyone else as well.
He beats Bane to get the remote detonator yes. But as Fennie and even you had mentioned: Batman always has a back-up plan. Why did he fix the auto-pilot? Because he had foreseen situations where he will depend on it.
" It can viewed this way because the plot calls for it. The clues are there to identify that hope rather Bruce surviving is the main theme."
Do you not see what you are doing? You're making statements as if you were writing for Nolan!! Who says that the plot calls for it? Based on movies you've seen? Wouldn't that also be cliche?
Again, my statements are just as big of a theory/hypothesis as yours! You cannot simply state something and believe it is fact, and everyone else who disagrees with it, doesn't know what they're talking about.
@KPpsych,
DeletePart of debating is to show confidence. If I sat in a discussion, I would fail to make a point if I said you're right. If you read more of the comments, I also thank the commenters for sharing their analysis.
I don't disregard their theories. However, I challenge a few that tell me to shoot myself and that my writing is poor. I doubt my writing is poor. I challenged a commenter on another popular thread where a moviegoers shared a link to this website. He backpedaled on his quality criticism.
I can visit news sites all day long and criticize writers. However, I would be wasting my time. I know how tough it is to produce thousands of pages of content. Constructive criticism can help writers to deliver quality content. Whereas I expect negative comments, I don't accept commenters who insult me.
On The Cabin in the Woods movie, one commenter wrote some damaging stuff. Her comment was uncalled for, especially since I disagree with her that Whedon wrote a good script. It was a terrible movie with a bad ending. I shared why this movie was terrible. The Devil inside is another terrible movie with the worst ending.
Everybody has their right to express their opinions. If I didn't care about what anyone wrote , including yourself, I wouldn't waste my time to leave long comments. Leaving long comments and answering questions shows that I respect all opinions and viewpoints.
Debating is about showing confidence. We see this often in politics. Who is right about running public program? Is there a right way to run the health care system. I debated many classmates in graduate school on public policy (Master in Public Administration). If you show weakness, then you will to get your points across. Nobody is wrong.
Nolan is a creative writer. He makes it too simple in the end to show that Bruce is alive. It is not even a traditional scene. Everything is derived from one POV. There is more to the ending than meets our critical eye.
As much as I write, I can't put IMO, in my opinion, and IMHO, and in my honest opinion to make points. The last time I challenged an unethical domain investor with IMO, hundreds criticized my arguments. Hundreds of people lost a lot of money because they refused to look at the truth. The blog manipulated people into thinking bad domains are good investments. I proved this in a strong article, but only a few really listened. They probably saved money and realized the articles they read there lack value.
I wouldn't mind writing in Hollywood. However, most of the receptionists block me from reaching the right people. I can never get through to the right people. I lack the resources to start a film company I planned three years ago. It is a Catch 22. You have the creative mind and skills to launch, but lack financial resources and industry connections to reach an audience.
We both have our theories. I respect your ideas. Thanks.
I also agree with a dream/fantasy sequence. It is an open ending but you never know, i mean what if Alfred had requested Jim Gordon to tell him everything that happened before batman set off. Jim could have told Alfred Batman had kissed a black haired, tall woman in leather. Alfred could have linked this with earlier research in the bat cave when looking at Selena Kyle. Also the nicking of his pearls could lead Alfred to his 'vision'.
ReplyDeleteAlso backing up my theory isn't it odd, Bruce Wayne the boy Alfred had taken in as a son and raised him ever since and was head over heels when he thought he was dead to see Bruce Wayne in a cafe and the first thing that pops to his mind is... 'LETS PLAY IT OUT IN MY DREAM, STICK TO THE DREAM!'and exchange nods. The ending just seems like a fantasy ending
@Mr T,
DeleteI agree with your theory. This is a good explanation. We could imply that Gordon told Batman that Blake saved him in the sewer. It would believable to suggest that Gordon shared Batman's final moment before delivering the bomb to out to sea.
It does seem like a fantasy/dream ending. The cafe ending appears dream-like. We can reflect on Alfred's fantasy. Alfred's quote reflects the ending. Selina is not that relevant in the ending.
Good analysis. It makes sense. Thanks for commenting.
I don't know if this has been mentioned but:
ReplyDeletePerhaps Bruce ejects himself at the moment when he shoots the building in front of him. "Theatricality and deception, powerful agents to the uninitiated."
@Spunky Chicken,
DeleteIf Batman ejected before blowing up the buildings to make a path, would autopilot be capable of maneuvering to the right?
The skyline faces the bridge. Therefore, the Bat would need to turn right to travel out to sea.
Most moviegoers will say that Batman doesn't care much to be a hero. He would not take the risk to die. They claim he wanted to retire and live his life. It never seemed he ever cared about his life.
Bruce put the people before his happiness. Ejecting out of the Bat would suggest that he is flying another plane after the 5 second moment.
Thanks for sharing your explanation of the ejection theory.
Thanks for the remarks. I believe it's safe to say the auto-pilot is programmable, since Bruce does have extremely sophisticated technology at his disposal.
DeleteIn any case, my theory also requires that the scenes showing Batman in the cockpit, after the building has exploded, are out of sequence. Either that or he is ejected while in a pod, leaving the Bat somewhat hollowed out. We never get a close shot of the Bat from the front after the building explodes, which makes this all the more interesting and ambiguous. Something interesting to note is the in the emotional scene where Batman looks at the camera, the shadows on his face are changing rapidly, suggesting that he is still passing by buildings when we think he is out on the ocean. I think he would have to be going thousands of miles per hour for the clouds to be causing such rapidly changing shadows.
Another thing, and this is just my feeling, is that Bruce doesn't deserve to die after the obscene efforts he has put forth to save the city throughout all three movies. It would be an injustice to the character to kill him off.
Sorry for replying to myself. Even though I would like to believe he is not dead, there are also other thematic cues that you've pointed out such as hope that make me unsure.
DeleteI've read before that the trilogy is themed in the order of 'fear, chaos, and pain'. The last movie considers all forms of pain, including despair. The death of Batman causes despair, and the few clues we are given that he is alive give us hope. "There is no true hope without despair."
This line of thought also leads me to think that the title 'The Dark Knight Rises' has triple meaning; John Blake taking on the mantle, Batman finally becoming an incorruptible legend, and Bruce finding peace in heaven.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete(I will apologize in advance for my english)
ReplyDeleteThe "dream theory" is possible. In that scenario, what do you think happenned with the string of pearls?
You argue that the scenario with Wayne surviving would mean that Nolan wrote the ending using cliché... So? Is that so hard to believe?
Stating that Wayne didn't survive just because Nolan is incapable of dissapointing your taste is kind of an argument of authority.
I think Nolan, although you may not like it, did wrote the ending using clichés and gave us a "happy ending".
You must recognize that the fact of Selena been in the scene is quite a hit to the dream theory, leaving your almost freudian dream-process explanations as the sole posibility of a counter-argument. There is no reason, conscius or onconscius, for Alfred to put Selena in his compensatory dream. If he wanted to put a female figure to complete the hope he had for Bruce having "a normal life", he would have put Rachel instead of Selena.
Great analysis... I just don't agree with you.
@PascalFer,
DeleteThanks for commenting.
Do you remember that Bruce never told Alfred he recovered the pearls. Alfred knew what Selina look like? She was a maid at the Wayne party.
It is easy for his subconscious mind to record images. If Alfred dreamed about Rachel, we wouldn't be having a discussion. That would confirm 100% that Bruce Wayne died.
Alfred doesn't identify Rachel as Bruce's happiness. He admitted to Bruce that he withheld a note that Rachel wrote, which proved that she loved Harvey Dent. Choosing Rachel as a dream symbol would then make the ending a dream.
Wayne didn't survive the blast because of previous plot clues that show evidence of his fate.
-the pit experience with the rope
-deceiving Selina on the autopilot
-wasting time with trying to confiscate the remote detonator from Bane
-his puncture wound
-another commenter thinking he organized his will after he survived the blast (that would be illegal to fake death and then to prepare the will)
-Alfred sharing his fantasy to foreshadow the exact theme in the ending
-many other points
It is way too cliche to show us all the clues. It is like Dream House movie. Once they revealed the twist in the midpoint, the rest of the movie was pointless to watch. No surprise.
Selina being in the scene is not a hit to the dream theme. She is not the main dream symbol. She is a screen filler - a decorative fixture. I can see if Selina is facing Alfred. At least 40% of viewers have no clue who the woman is in the cafe ending.
I have data to prove that moviegoers don't know it's Selina in the scene. Alfred can dream of Wonder Woman sitting next to Bruce Wayne. He can imagine Bruce's parents sitting there. Alfred has never met Wonder Woman. It wouldn't wrong to show another female super hero. That would be too cliche though.
Alfred or any other human can't choose what they want to dream unless they attempt lucid dreaming, astral projection and or the OBE. Otherwise, human minds operate subconsciously while in a dream state or to imagine one person as being happy. Maybe accepting that a person can reach happiness in the afterlife.
Again, Alfred is not going to dream of Bruce with Rachel. Subconsciously, Alfred knows that Rachel was not right for Bruce. He watched Bruce deteriorate over losing Rachel. Admitting to Bruce that he destroyed a secret note from Rachel infuriated Bruce.
We can agree to disagree. I appreciate the compliment, feedback and your personal perception. I may be the small minority that believe the cafe ending is a dream, but my previous film school experience and many years of film theory are leading me in the dream direction.
Your English is good enough and I understand your analysis. Thanks again for the input.
Thanks for the quick reply.
DeleteI have to admit that the so called "dream theory" was my first interpretation of the ending. Walking out the theater I started to share my take on the ending and it wasn't shared by anyone.
You make a very good case for the dream scenario, but at this point, having theories and "evidence" for the two distinct takes on the ending, I prefer to accept it as an open one.
Unless Nolan explicitly tells us what he had in his mind writing the ending, although with different proof criteria, we can only speculate.
I like differents aspects of the two scenarios and carry the two in my mind, as with the different "versions" of reality (and people, and ourselves)we use to interpret it accordinf to context.
Learning to live with/in incertitude may be the great challenge of our generation.
Makes me wonder... it's not much the case here, but, if people can't disaggre in a healthy way about the interpretation of a particular story, what can we expect for the interpretation of history, or ultimately, reality?
Thanks again for the time you took to share your interpretation and for the space you gave others to constrast it. You did it with respect for others posibilities without compromising your own.
My final take on the ending would be:
Incertitude is King.
You missed the fact that he ISN'T IN THE BAT 5 seconds from the end. Watch the scene again, they follow Batman very closely as he flies into a building, then he blows it up to fly through. Without seeing Batman in the Bat, Blake watches the Bat fly over the bay out of the explosion of the building.
ReplyDeleteWe are then given a shot of Batman in some kind of black aircraft device, who is looking to the side, then turns to face the camera. As he does so, a shadow passes his face.
If he were in the Bat, over the ocean, then there would be no shadow. It's simple. He ejects under cover of the explosion, watches the Bat fly out over the bay, while in his eject seat, he flies away. We then see the bomb show the 5 seconds, etc.
The "Bruce dies/Nightwing takes over theory" is part of the audience representing Bruce Wayne. We want Bruce to take up the mantle of Batman, because Batman's awesome. But Alfred doesn't think that Batman is necessary and pleads with him not to do it. Bruce thinks that he will ultimately die as Batman, like his parents, defending their loved ones. He is convinced utterly, and he has never gotten over his parent's death.
As a child, Bruce fell into the Well. The Well represented what he could grow up to be: The Batman. But his father climbs down and carries him out. The rope isn't hope: it's Bruce's father. After his parents die, Bruce returns to the Well to become Batman, because his father isn't there anymore, and he must carry out justice. Throughout the films, like the comics, Batman is shown in the dark, on a rooftop, away from the people and the life that he could live. Both Alfred and Rachel fear for Bruce because the Batman persona is so strong.
A lot of TDKR's Act 1 action takes place underground, mostly with Bane/Batman round 1. In these scenes, he is still in the Well, he does not fear Death, as that is something, like the audience, he expects, and thus, he loses the fight.
He remains trapped in the Well, wishing to die, but knowing if he does, Gotham will have no hope. His Batman has become so isolated from the people of Gotham that if he dies, Gotham cannot live on. Bruce cannot rely on the rope to get him out, because his parents are gone. But he cannot sit there.
It is his fear of Death, his will to live, that returns to him, and gives him strength to climb out of the well. As he does so, he is shown in brilliant light against the skyline and buildings. In the final confrontation with the cops vs the criminals, Batman is bathed in full light, fighting amongst the people of Gotham, and defeats Bane in this state.
So when he finds out that the chamber is flooded, and they cannot get the bomb back, he realizes that in order to save Gotham, he must die.
But he doesn't have to. He remembers Alfred, he lets go of his parents' death, and decides to eject instead of flying with the bomb.
If he dies in the end, then the cafe scene is a lot LESS meaningful, because it proves that Bruce did not learn how to cope during the film, that he was sent down the path of no return, and that he never found anything better that the hellhole of Gotham.
But he survived. Bruce's character arc is completed, but Batman is a symbol. Even Batman cannot be killed, there will always be a hero to take up the mantle. Blake may not be ready just yet, but he will become the Batman because the Batman's arc is never complete until there is nothing wrong with Gotham (utopia--infinitely in the future).
Thanks for reading this, if you did, it is a lot, and I accept that you have your opinion and ideas.
Sorry I'm late on commenting, hope you get this. I have watched the film 3 times, especially the moments between Bruce's return (after pit escape), and his saving the city from the bomb. He did survive, and I have the logical, factual explination other than the auto pilot. First yes the auto pilot was fixed, however people telling you this was the sole reason of his survival are wrong. (btw nice analysis, very interesting). Now lets go back to when Bruce returns to gothom, and finds lucious fox. They go to Bruce's underground batcave 2.0 (previously seen in Dark Knight) listen to their conversation carefully. Bruce asks Lucious what they can do about the bomb, and whether he can delay/block/ or shorten the radius of the explosion because the trigger inside the bomb a micro-burst (to get it to the reactor). Lucious tells him yes, with a device called the "EMP Guidence Mal" from the Bat (batman's hoverplane). Lucious takes the device out of the bat, they give it to gordon (who is told to put the device on the bomb), who then searches for the bomb (while the fight ensues). When Gordon finds the bomb he at first drops the device (must be the reason everyone forgets about it) then he picks it up, goes inside the container, and puts it on theh bomb. After the fight, bane's death, and talia's death batman takes the bomb over the bay (scene we are all fimiliar with). Now as batman looks over the bay we have no idea exactly how much time is left, because when 5 sec are shown we dont see him in the camera again. However when he first took the bomb he had at least 1:20 left, so over the bay he would have had about 15 to 10 secs left (therefore auto pilot- we didnt see him in the hoverplace anymore). The radius shortened due to the emp, because remember the blast would have still affected the outer reach of teh city, he couldnt have gone 6 miles in tht short time. However the EMP shortened/delayed (or however you want to say it) the blast at full peak. Remember the scene where they discuss this advice is when Bruce returns, and meets up with Lucious to suit up. And Alfred is not dreaming, remember when he left cat woman/selina kyle was not someone he thought bruce was fond of. If it were a dream Bruce would be with rachel (dark knight) that was the fantasy he told alfred he had before she died (retiring, living his life with her-didnt know she chose dent). So there you go, and thanks for your opinion anyway, its just everyone prbly wasnt paying attention to tht convo with bruce, and lucious, and they didnt remember how the commish put the device on the bomb.
ReplyDeletealso at the end the man in charge of bruce's estate/property asked "any news on the missing item?"
Deletehis scretary replied "no"
he then said we cant have a missing item like a string of pearls missing on the manifest.
those pearls were on selina when alfred saw them.
Thanks for the analysis. Good work. You make a good case to explain the plot holes in the ending.
DeleteYour analysis is concise with including the dialogue. It helps to revisit the dialogue again.
I disagree that Alfred can control his dreams. It would be cliche to show Alfred dreaming in bed. This would make the ending weak. The subconscious mind dreams whatever it wants.
Our consciousness is unable to control the subconscious mind. This is why untreated mental disorders manifest into multiple Axis II disorders. Dreams are like movies. They can't be interpreted a number of different ways. There is no right and wrong way.
With the recent House at the End of the Street, the clues are front and center to explain the movie. We don't have to think too hard to interpret the movie. We go to sleep. Unless we astral project, induce an OBE or activate lucid dreaming, we have little control of our dreams.
People can't stop their tsunami dreams. They search daily to question their examination dream, teeth falling out dream, yellow spider dream, three suns dream, and all the dreams they can't resolve. As much as they want to stop dreaming, they continue to keep dreaming the same dreams.
In the Batman movie, you have to review all the details. Gordon probably told Batman that Blake save him in the gutter.
You put great thought in your analysis. Thanks for sharing the dialogue exchange between Fox and Bruce. I do remember the EMP that Gordon places on the bomb. Otherwise, the atomic explosion would've expanded further inward to cause tsunamis.
When do you think Bruce retrieve the pearls. He never mentions to Alfred that he got the pearls back. Alfred made a few jokes about Bruce inviting Selena to have coffee.
The Batman ending is still ambiguous. I appreciate the time and thought you put in the comment. Thanks.
Excuse my English, it's not my main language
ReplyDeleteOld post but I just find it now... This is very interesting topic and the most interesting article about Alfred's dream so far.
Bruce Wayne is alive and I agree with all the comments above which said he's alive. Besides, JGL has confirmed it on his interview with David Letterman about it
Hi Shinta,
DeleteThanks for complimenting the post. I believe the ending is Alfred's moment. It seems dream-like with the somber setting. Alfred is the most important person to Bruce. He has his moment last.
JGL actually indicated he has no idea where his John Blake character will go. He hasn't been approached to do anything yet.
We have a variety of comments on the site. There are hundreds to review. Good healthy discussions on the ending.
Thanks for commenting.
I don't know which interview you watched, but the interview about the ending of TDKR about whether Bruce is alive is mixed with interview of "Looper"
DeleteThe conversation is like this (if I'm not mistaken) :
David : "Is Batman died or alive?"
JGL : "You were the one who spoil it, right?"
David : "Okay then, is Bruce Wayne dead or alive?"
JGL : 'Bruce Wayne is alive"
There and he even stated that John Blake is Nolan's version of Robin in his Batman universe.
I also think the scenes like : autopilot, missing pearls, shadow on Batman's face, Fox ad Bruce moment when they were in rooftop of Wayne Ent,
the conversation :
Bane : So, you come back to die with your city?"
Batman : No, I come back to stop you"
Why bother if the ending is just a dream? every scene in Nolan's movie always has something other than "hope" in it. Every scene tells something.
Just like what DVinci said :
"If he dies in the end, then the cafe scene is a lot LESS meaningful, because it proves that Bruce did not learn how to cope during the film, that he was sent down the path of no return, and that he never found anything better that the hellhole of Gotham.
But he survived. Bruce's character arc is completed, but Batman is a symbol. Even Batman cannot be killed, there will always be a hero to take up the mantle. "
The scenes of Batman dies, John discovered the cave and Alfred noticed Bruce and Selina has "RISE" soundtrack in it.
I always see :
Batman died and Blake RISES as new Batman (in Nolan's movie only)
Fake Bruce Wayne died and real Bruce Wayne RISES by gaining normal life after everything
So, I believe he's still alive
I don't think the argument of "Bruce Wayne is a billionaire celeb so everyone would recognize him" holds up.
ReplyDeletehe was essentially a shut in for 7 years only to make an appearance to see Catwoman.
Bruce Wayne was out of the minds of people, ESPECIALLY people outside of Gotham City.
7 years ago? sure Bruce Wayne would have been recognized everywhere. Today? Not so much.
I bet you could show the pictures of 20 billionaires and you would probably only recognize a handful.
Hi Reil,
DeleteBruce is a recognized figure. Even though Bruce leaves the spotlight, he is almost considered a Tony Stark type of figure. His death would have been reported on the Gotham and World News. American news is popular across the world.
Most don't know the names of the top richest people in the world. I read the Forbes list often to know the richest people.
I'm thinking that news about his death reached world status. The bomb event was a serious event.
Thanks for commenting. Good points.
Ok, late to the game here. Just saw the movie, loved it. Great way to end a great trilogy. I have ready most of the replies here, because after getting out of the movie I had the obvious questions, what happened at the end here. Now, I am going to bring up something kind of whacky, but, in the world of comics, is it really that implausible? I can't help but think of the preview I saw before TDKR began - yes, the superman preview. It's done by Nolan too. TDKR grounds us in a firm reality that isn't so far off from ours. This grittiness separates it from the rest of the DC universe. But, batman does exist in the DC universe. Gotham is one city, Metropolis is another. Now this is not to say that batman couldn't find a way through the second batwing or the autopilot (With how much batman does rely on tech, trusting an autopilot to fly isn't that much of a stretch).
ReplyDeleteBut, what in the DC universe is faster than a speeding bullet? IMHO, what went down in TDKR would be the kind of thing that would draw supermans attention! Oddly, it would solve some other plot holes brought up by others if it was superman ---in that 5 second moment, the changing light on batman, some have even said thats the second batwing on autopilot. And ----- this is a big one...if the batwing was having issues getting lift how did it gwet the bomb out far enough. The OP of this even pointed out tidal actions that would take place if the bomb went off close to the surface of the ocean. Maybe superman didn't even snag batman, maybe he saw and knew what batman was doing, and snagged the bomb itself and took it the rest of the way, safely to a higher altitude to explode? Call it crazy, but, this is the DC universe! Nolan has conditioned us in batman to be grounded in the grit and dirt of the real world. But, he is a big part of the new superman movies.
It's unlikely any theories on this can be proven right or wrong, well, that is of course because Nolan isn't to be a part of the Justice League project. And yeah, DC is seeing what marvel did with the Avengers and wants that too. To the point that the batman trilogy here, and nolans superman series to come, won't be a part of the grander justice league arc. And that is the greatest tragedy of them all, the idea that Nolans vision of the DC universe isn't easy to work with - too dark for justice league, so we have to reboot. Think of the crapfest that was green lantern. DC could do something with this. Nolan plus DC, superman but dark. All the DC heroes, but dark. Hell, even aquaman might be cool in that universe. One can dream though right. That at that last second, bruce see's a man flying in a red cape, he snags the bomb, flies it to safety an zips back to catch batman before he hits the ocean....
Hi Chuck,
DeleteBetter later than never. The Dark Knight Rises has created a lot of interest. The ending is clever.
Thinking of Superman as a part of the TDKR is entertaining. However, Nolan's Batman films are realistic. We have real life scenarios. Superman's power and abilities are more with a metaphysical them.
The bomb weighed down the Bat upon takeoff. The Bat managed to maneuver with the bomb. Joseph Gordon-Levitt admitted that he has no idea where his John Blake character will lead to in the future. As for Superman entering realism, we know that is unlikely.
There are many plot holes to consider in the ending. People have argued that Bruce has a face scar, that he paid Alfred's bill, he summoned the second Bat, used autopilot to remove the bomb, and the pearl necklace. We have Blake saving the children like Gordon did for Bruce. Gordon reads a quote from The Tale of Two Cities. batman tells selina he doesn't have autopilot.
These points are important to consider There is no right and wrong answer. The majority believe Bruce is alive, while the minority accept Bruce died in the explosion.
Thanks for the input. Entertaining post.
I would like to have a peaceful debate with you on skype or a different messaging place, I embrace you ideas and accept many theories and try to arrange the from least probable to most rational. If you can send me one of your contact information to debate about your theory. If it's all right with you, I enjoy debating with intelligent people.
DeleteYou can send an e-mail to astralwriter@live.com. I think MSN has a good messenger to debate via chat.
DeleteThe Dark Knight Rises is one of those rare movies that can drive a discussion by using a powerful ending. As moviegoers, we can argue the facts through reflecting points made in the setup and development.
Thanks for the comment.
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It's been a long time since I've read such an analytical post about a movie ending. Most of the time though, people disregard analytical points of view that don't meet their own needs for a happy ending, for the hopeful and optimistic fate of the superhero. In my opinion, a thorough analysis is not just about putting scenes and clues next to each other, but rather about understanding the concept, the themes that surround the movie, in order to gain a better understanding about what Batman is all about.
ReplyDeleteI have never been a fan of Batman, as I am not a fan of any comic books or movies related to them. It is sad to me though, that so-called fans of the movie fail to grasp that Batman is nothing more than a symbol, an icon. The Dark Knight is not a man; if he were, he would be sitting in a cafe in Italy right now. Just like Batman says it in the movie, it is not the identity of the man behind the mask which matters. Also, the mask is to protect the people and not the person behind it.
Batman dies that day saving Gotham. Any other alternate ending would erase the Batman persona and everything he stands for, the symbol Nolan emphasizes in all three movies. Nolan's genius lies in the ambiguity and in the deceiving clues. The whole idea of the movie was to leave it open to interpretation ! Once people understand this, it would definitely be easier to understand why he couldn't just emphasize the idea of a dream (Alfred's scene), using classic cinema techniques. Just like you said, the film is about hope vs. fate: you can choose either one, but only one of them leads you to fulfilment and achievind the ultimate goal.
Batman couldn't risk the fate of an entire city on an autopilot function. He already went through the Pit experience, he had by then fully grown and developed. He never abandoned Gotham, but the Pit made him better understand the importance of it.
What I find truly fascinating is the balance Nolan managed to find between the life - death hypotheses. It is a very well constructed ending and this balance (which manages to make you think and oscillate between one side or the other) is what makes this movie great.
I don't think I read anything about this, but what do you think about the explosion happening right after the Bat gets out of the city and heads towards the sea ? People think that might have been a diversion, so that Batman could escape unseen, is there any other interpretation ?
Thanks for your post, it was very illuminating.
@Sharky3y,
DeleteGreat comment. I respect the work you put into discussing the movie, even though you don't watch too many comic book and superhero movies.
As you can see many times on this website, moviegoers are quick to rush judgement instead of seeing the truth. They want to believe that Bruce Wayne survived the explosion. By showing Bruce at the cafe, they automatically accept he is alive.
However, the cafe scene resembles Alfred's fantasy. It is almost deja vu to watch this scene unfold. This is why I believe the cafe is anything but reality. We want Bruce Wayne to survive. We view him as Batman, the fate and hope of Gotham. The pit proves that Bruce Wayne is like us.
As for your last question, I don't think explosion is staged so give Batman a safe escape route (a diversion to trick the city). I also heard movie fans note that Bruce called upon another Bat to switch out. I don't believe the autopilot took the bomb out to sea.
It takes more to explain Bruce survived rather than he died. The explosion occurs because Bruce Wayne accepts his fate to save Gotham, the city he views as his family. He is willing to give his life to ensure Gotham City survives.
Bruce Wayne reveals his true identity to Gordon through referencing a past event that occurred many years ago. Most people will reveal a truth once they realize their actions may result in an end.
The explosion is very real. It the type of moment that shapes the journey. Bruce Wayne is meant to save Gotham City. He has a purpose in life. The city must watch the Bat fly out to sea, knowing there is a bomb underneath the plane.
Blake is disgusted that Bruce Wayne/Batman risked his life for Gotham for the people to not know his true identity. Who really save them besides Batman? Bruce Wayne made the ultimate sacrifice.
Nolan uses emotional connections to convey meaning. We hold discussions to challenge the ending. It is not an obvious ending that is straightforward.
Good discussion. Thanks for commenting as well as giving support to the analysis.
I am with the author (astral writer) I believe Bruce risked his life willingly to save Gotham his beloved City.
ReplyDeleteIn the Dark knight movie, the joker made a really good point about people, this was the part when he was in the cell after batman left to save rachel or dent, he quoted " In their last moments, people show you who they really are" In bruces last moment as we see before he explodes we see his facial expression, showing who he really is, that he has decided to accept death and be a true hero.
Thanks for the comment. You made some strong points, even sharing the Joker's quote in The Dark Knight and Batman's facial expression prior to the explosion.
DeleteBatman is a symbol of courage, faith, and strength. He knows what must be done in order to save Gotham City. Great points you made.
I appreciate the comment. Definitely visit again to discuss the movie. It will be out tomorrow. Thanks.
Thanks for the reply.
DeleteThanks for liking my point too
And I have purchased my copy, and have enjoyed it a lot
Bruce Wayne is left as a symbolic figure, however Tony stark cannot be compared to him at all, it is two kind of different attention. In the end, the movie's ending can be only be interpreted by individuals.
ReplyDeleteAnd let's be realistic here you ever been to any ski resorts? Do you think similar cable of that will break when it can hold hundreds of people + the weight of the bench? It's a military grade object + the funding of a billionaire that made the bat possible I don't think they will cheap out on a cable. The main point is you have way too much of your nonsense opinions and I get that it's a movie, but it's like asking why batmobile hasn't gotten a flat tire which is a vague question.
Every movie has plot holes, sometimes you have to let it slide. If you are brave enough to criticize, which this shows that you are, at least try to stay on topic. It's not likely that you will have written it any better otherwise you would be a writer right?
Overall just enjoy the movie, it's a movie for a reason.
Delete@Eric,
DeleteI disagree with your last comment that I can't write any better or else I would be a writer. I have written for many people, which I don't mention to take away from the fact that Bruce Wayne is likely dead.
Theories are theories. Film schools, both production and theory-based, thrive on holding similar discussions about many films. I've taken part in many film school discussion. Nobody is right, nor wrong suggesting Bruce Wayne is dead or alive.
In any case, my opinions bring up possibilities. Anything analysis involves proving a point using facts. Unless Nolan shares the Batman ending, we can fill in the holes to explain the meaning of the cafe scene as well as the questionable scenes throughout The Dark Knight Rises movie.
Every movie may contain plot holes, but this movie has many unexplained events that require further analysis. You've read one of dozens of articles I released on The Dark Knight Rises. You wouldn't known how well I can write screenplays until you view my work.
I respect your opinion. I don't have to agree. Thanks for commenting.
Totally agree with what youre saying, But to support the movie, I see no plot holes, I think Nolan did an extraordinary job in his take on Baman in this trilogy. Everything seemed to be covered even with the littlest of details. Nolan definitely was a skilled director in creating discussion on such a great movie.
DeleteAgree with Eric*
DeleteI did enjoy the movie. Good movies are commonly discussed, whereas bad movies are forgotten.
ReplyDeleteBatman fans will revisit the discussion again once they watch the movie on DVD tomorrow.
Any comments after you bought the DVD and revisited the movie again? :)
DeleteInteresting to see the discussion and analysis. Great efforts on both sides!
It's a superhero movie, so I don't think that you can explain everything by pure logic. If you question the flaw of the autopilot theory about how it's not seen by Gothemites, I would say it's more questionable how the batman made his sign for fire on top of the bridge under many eyes when he's returned from the pit.
To me, the last few scenes clearly deliver the message that Bruce is alive. Like pointed out in many comments, they were coherent and progressed among the view from different characters, and don't forget the music, which strengthened to climax when Bruce finally showed up in front of Alfred - don't see the tone is in a dreamed scene.
It seems an overreact to me to presume that Bruce must die to be a true hero and come up the dreaming theory to support it.
Even if the director or the writer reveals that their idea is that "Bruce died", that wouldn't erase all the scenes (the dialogues on auto pilot, the revelation Bruce fixed it, the light in Bruce's face during flight, etc) that point to the idea that "Bruce survived". The artwork's truth is more important than the author's truth or intention, because it will survive for a much longer time, and he will not be always there to explain (or, in this case, contradict) what the artwork says. But of course, their intention was that "Bruce survived", otherwise, the mentioned scenes wouldn't have been filmed. They required time, energy, and money to be filmed, and exist to explain how the happy cafe ending was possible.
ReplyDeleteIs it so hard to accept that your initial belief that "Bruce died" is not in accordance to the evidences? It's not a theory, just pay more attention to the movie, and you'll change your mind.
Thanks,
John
This theory doesnt make sense to me for several big reasons. Number one is the author/director clearly intended Bruce to survive. He fixed the autopilot but mislead people into believing it didnt work, this gives us unambiguous proof that Bruce intended to fake his death.
ReplyDeleteThen we have the fixed bat signal to give Gordon a clue, the fact Bruce logged that he fixed the autopilot to give Fox a clue and then the final scene to show Alfred hes still alive. The scene of these things being revealed continues seemlessly into Alfred seeing him alive. It builds the idea that he is alive as it goes on and strengthens it with each character close to him seeing proof hes still alive and then the final payoff is seeing him and realizing his fantasy has become reality.
The ending is very plainly geared towards that revelation and there is nothing to make me think its a fantasy. If Alfred was going to fantasize about the dead Bruce Wayne wouldnt it make more sense to imagine him with the woman he loved for many years who is also dead? Why did he leave Rachel out in favour of some thief that he doesnt know Bruce knew as anything but an enemy?
If your going to assume that they will randomly insert fantasy scenarios into it you might as well assume Bruce died trying to escape the pit, his father appeared to him to welcome him to heaven and the rest is set in the afterlife where he gets to live out his dream of saving Gotham one last time.
I also meant to say that him still being in the cockpit is entirely unknown. We see him in the seat and we see the Bat heading out to sea. We are never shown that the seat is still in the Bat. I assumed that once he got out of Gotham and there were no buildings in the way he ejected the seat and probably a portion of the controls and set it to simply fly in a straight line at top speed.
ReplyDeleteThe idea he wouldnt use an autopilot that he himself fixed doesnt make sense because he was shown to be comfortable trusting the remote control/auto for the tumbler despite the fact it was firing heavy weapons in an enclosed space with people around. Batman trusts his tools, he wouldnt just decide to needlessly fly off to his own dead despite having the means to save himself when he knows his tech works. Thats suicide more than it is a heroic sacrifice.
Seven months later and you this still reads like you have Down's Syndrome - next time, think before you type
ReplyDeleteI see where you are trying to come from in stating your opinion and possible belief Mr. Wayne died in the Bat, yet coming to this conclusion is ignoring the multiple minute, yet significant hints (at the end of the movie after Gotham being saved) Nolan had given us to convey that Bruce, truly did die. Coming to the belief where Alfred was "dreaming" this seems more of a far-fetched idea to come up with seeing as Nolan had not built up on this idea other than Alfred mourning the "loss and failure" of Bruce. That was the only scene that conveyed Alfred's pain, so with that, I believe, in my own opinion it would be too far-fetched for Alfred to have been dreaming that, seeing as there is not enough evidence to prove or at the least support this idea. I personally do believe Batman had survived with the autopilot, yet what I do not understand is the part when Bruce and Lucius were fixing the Bat when Bruce returned from the pit. In this part Bruce had said he did not fix the autopilot. I see no reason as to why Bruce had to lie to Lucius about the autopilot. Possibly to give himself an allibi to be able to get away with Selina as shown at the end of the movie, and leave the cape to Blake aka "Robin". This part in particular was a part that had upset me seeing as no Robin in the comics really was named Robin as their identity, only as the sidekick, Robin. Yet, not being so attached the comic-truth, Nolan might have done this only to give his case to the story in his making of the Dark Knight trilogy. And, for the Batman fans not familiar with the names of all the Robins, he merely had him be truly named Robin to hint at Blake being the next "Batman". All in all, my opinion is Batman survived, based on the evidence and small hints provided. I see where you were trying to come from with your ideas and opinion, but I believe they are insufficient with supporting evidence and too abundant with adding self-input to support your own opinion.
ReplyDeleteYour whole idea of fate and hope as well seemed off. Not sure if you understood the part of fear holding him back, or if you have seen the previous Batman movies. Bruce had spent so much time and attention into turning what he feared against those who committed crime. He tried making himself immune to fear, be able to resist and overcome his fears to the point he did not fear death anymore, but he accepted it (like what Bane had said when they first fought). at this point, i myself, had came to the idea that all this time Batman had spent becoming immune to fear he met a challenge that defied his beliefs, that in order to overcome the Bane, he had to fear. to fear death. In order for Bruce to have escaped he had to fear. Not fearing made him weak. Not being afraid to die made him weaker slower not able to fight sufficient to overcome Bane because he did not fear death killing him, fear being that emotion that drive to assist in Batman defeating Bane. So coming so close to death when Bruce climbed without the rope, he learned to fear death. He did not want to die. He had to fight Bane with all his might and fear, so that he would try harder than he possibly could so that he would not die. This is all my interpretation, i hope you understand.
DeletePossibly, for the part where Bruce tells Lucius the Bat flies well even without the autopilot, it may be me picking at the scene to suit what I want to believe (seeing as a huge Batman fan), the look Bruce Wayne gives when saying "YEA, even without the autopilot". When he says yea he looks away to the side giving sort of a glance then finishes his sentence seeing if Lucius makes anything of it. I may be diving into this scene too much but i wouldnt see past Nolan to be discrete in this hint of Bruce's lie.
Deletei know this is late but i just came across these comments on Bruce Wayne's fate at the end of TDKR. I've read the arguments about dream sequences and Batman ejecting to escape the bomb. I have yet to see mentioned the smoke in the last Batpod scene. 5 seconds on the clock, no Batman...but smoke moving in the cockpit. Sorry folks. BATMAN EJECTED. It explains the software patch in the Batpod, the fixed Bat signal that Gordon discovers in the end, the change to Bruce Wayne's will, the smoke in the cockpit of the batpod & Alfred seeing Bruce Wayne at the cafe w/Selina. Sometimes we dont see what the creator wants us to see, we see what we think SHOULD be. I write screenplays and you dont just put a scene like a dream sequence without hinting in some way that a character might be dreaming. in the end, you have several scenes hinting Bruce Wayne escaped the blast, one scene showing Bruce Wayne w/ selina actually alive...and NO indication Alfred is dreaming. By the way, why wld Alfred dream of Selina in that scene? Why show the pearls missing, why show Selina in Alfreds dream. I think Nolan is talented enough to better indicate Alfred is dreaming if that is what he was trying to convey. In great screen writing, typically, the protagonist achieves his primary and secondary goals. Bruce found life beyond the batcave and he saved Gotham. Finally, sometimes a rope is just...a rope.
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