The Dark Knight Rises ending is open for discussion. Many Batman fans are divisive on the Alfred scene in the movie end. Is Alfred at a Paris cafe? Does Alfred see Bruce Wayne and Selina dining? What do you think Christopher intended to convey in this sequence? The Dark Knight Rises ending dream interpretation is possible.
***Movie Spoiler***
The Dark Knight Rises involves an abundance of information that leaves open the possibility that Bruce Wayne is alive. It is too obvious that Bruce Wayne shows up at the same cafe that Alfred mentions near the turning point and leading up to the Second Act (development). The Dark Knight ending features a twist ending, a surprise ending, and a cliffhanger. Most movies struggle to incorporate one of these techniques.
However, Nolan manages to write an exceptional screenplays to serve up possible ending meanings. We all know that Nolan is into dream interpretation and he is also superstitious. He stated that he would like to make another dream movie such as Inception.
Batman flies the Bat plane with the atomic bomb dangling below on a line. Soon after Batman clears a path with missiles, we see the Bat plane fly out to the ocean. Yes, Batman is seen again with a dire look planted on his face. Bruce admitted in the pit prison that he fears death. This fear possibly resides from his parents getting murdered. Batman is a tough crime fighting machine. In his core, as Bruce Wayne, there is fear of death.
Again, we think the Alfred scene at the end is conveying a dream interpretation rather than just showing Bruce and Selina dining in reality. That is too easy to suggest Bruce Wayne rigged the auto pilot function 6 months ago. Even further, revealing that Bruce Wayne/Batman survived the atomic explosion without showing any flashbacks is bad writing. We all know that Nolan is a great writer.
The ending dream interpretation is that Alfred is imagining Bruce and Salina. Alfred doesn't know that Batman and Selina express feelings for one another. Salina kissed Batman right before he flies off to save Gotham. Batman is shown in the Bat plane. He has a grim facial expression such as trying to accept death. The fear of death heightens anxiety, which Batman seems to know that his end is near. We feel his emotion.
No way Batman's suit protected him in the atomic blast. He didn't eject out of the Bat plane. Batman dies. There is no reason to think that Batman is alive, and then to end with a cliffhanger. It doesn't matter that Christian Bale suggests that he is interested in working with Christopher Nolan in future Batman movies. The Alfred scene is a dream interpretation. It shows dream imaginary inside Alfred's mind while sleeping and or possibly leading up to his death. The Paris cafe is a figment of the imagination.
Alfred is too emotional at Bruce Wayne's grave site. If Bruce Wayne survived, then Alfred would've shown more excitement than nodding at his Master Wayne. Think back to Bruce Wayne revealing he fears dying. Compare the moment to Batman's grim facial expression with 3-5 seconds remaining. Batman dies. The mechanic sharing with Fox about Bruce Wayne fixing the auto pilot issue only implies Batman may have survived the atomic blast.
We think not. Why? Because Blake reaching the Bat Cave due to retrieving a bag that Wayne probably left him is the cliffhanger. Ending The Dark Knight Rises with the Alfred scene leaves open interpretation that Bruce Wayne as Batman indeed survived the atomic blast. He is able to honor Alfred's dream of living out his life with happiness. Batman knew beforehand that his sacrifice would result in saving Gotham and its citizens.
Batman/Bruce Wayne risked his life to save the people. He adjusted his "will" to give back to Alfred and the orphans. People who intend to leave sense what they must do make preparations. Bruce Wayne prepared to escape the Bat Plane. Nonetheless, Batman stayed inside the Bat plane to ensure no malfunctions would compromise Gotham and its citizens. What if Batman utilized the auto pilot function? And then the Bat plane failed to make it out to sea? This would be unintelligent to take a chance with millions of lives.
Nolan possibly included the Alfred dream sequence to convey with the passing of one hero, comes the rise of another in Blake becoming Nightwing. This is our theory of The Dark Knight Rises ending meaning in the dream sequence. What do you think? Thanks.
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Another thing is that the ending was planned like this before they added catwoman, so Alfred would've seen Bruce with another unknown woman (possibly not even turning her head) if they hadn't added her, suggesting that it may or may not be a reality.
ReplyDeleteI agree. There are so many angels to consider. A lot going on in the ending. We see Selina with Bruce. It is one of those scenes that is open-ended. We can all find two sides to whether Bruce is alive at the cafe or it's a dream. It makes for good discussions.
DeleteThanks for the comment.
I disagree as Alfred had no clue about Wayne's and kyles relationship so this would suggest that Alfred is actually seeing them, also Alfred only sees selena kyles biography rather than actually meeting, he only hears about her stealing Wayne's property so thi would also suggest he only knows as a villian. So it would be completely stupid to imagine Wayne leaving batmans life for someone who causes him pain.
DeleteI disagree. Why would Bruce Wayne hallucinate about a man he killed? People can dream about any person they want. Besides, Selina is not the main attraction. We see a side profile of her, one that she is used to in committing past crimes.
DeleteIt's unintelligent to think that another person is unable to imagine things that are on their mind such as Bruce's happiness. Not every person is unselfish, as proven with Bruce Wayne sacrificing his life to save Gotham and Alfred dreaming/imagining/fantasizing/hallucinating that he is happy.
If we see Selina and Bruce facing us, then we know the two as a couple are important to the scene. Selina is essentially a fixture, a screen prop to show the emphasis on Bruce's happiness. Alfred sees what he wants to see.
I agree with your last sentence, but more so if Bruce survives. Selina is not a trustworthy woman. She can turn on a person at any time. She did cause Batman pain with double-crossing him. Bane ruptured his spine.
You should look into dream research before debating on dreams. You can go to sleep tonight or taker a daytime nap and imagine the cafe scene. You don't control your subconscious mind. We dream about people we know little about. Nolan opened the door for hallucinations and fantasies.
Pay attention to Gordon's Tale of Two Cities quote, Blake giving children hope the world is not ending, and the autopilot serving as hope to show us the greatness of his sacrifice. Did you hear Batman tell Selina, "no autopilot"?
Thanks for the comment.
There is NOTHING open to interpretation here with the ending. Bruce lived. Period.
DeleteThe scenes at the end were there to solidify this along with the director and actors and books confirming it.
- Fixed Autopilot scene with Fox
- Fixed Batman signal to let Gordon know he lived
- Bag left for Blake and cave
- Mention of the string of pearls which had the tracking device which led Alfred to the cafe to see Bruce and Selina.
They showed Bruce to make sure there was NO CONFUSION/INTERPRETATION if he lived or not. If they only showed Alfred nodding and no Bruce, it would have been even an more epic ending but would have basically created exactly what you started...making an open ending out of an ending that is definitely closed.
Bruce
Wayne
Lived
There is NOTHING open to interpretation here with the ending. Bruce lived. Period.
DeleteThe scenes at the end were there to solidify this along with the director and actors and books confirming it.
- Fixed Autopilot scene with Fox
- Fixed Batman signal to let Gordon know he lived
- Bag left for Blake and cave
- Mention of the string of pearls which had the tracking device which led Alfred to the cafe to see Bruce and Selina.
They showed Bruce to make sure there was NO CONFUSION/INTERPRETATION if he lived or not. If they only showed Alfred nodding and no Bruce, it would have been even an more epic ending but would have basically created exactly what you started...making an open ending out of an ending that is definitely closed.
Bruce
Wayne
Lived
Very interesting points... well analysed!
ReplyDeleteI am now thinking of the beacon light that was fixed, don't think that that was a coincidence. Just trying my best to make myself beleive that Wayne is still alive... "as a detective we are told not to beleive in coincidences" :)
Thanks. I'm started to contemplate the obvious that Batman/Bruce survived once I reflected back on a number of clues. Bruce does see Ra as a hallucination, which made us think a dream sequence is possible whereas it hasn't been used in the other two Nolan films.
DeleteThe Bat and atomic scene have a strong effect on the orphans and Blake. We were moved that Batman is flying this atomic bomb out to sea as some sort of sacrificial theme. We also remember Batman flying the Bat plane with 3-5 seconds remaining. It was a powerful blast, though a city blast would have been much more greater. Batman did fly the atomic bomb further out to give Gotham a chance to avoid the blast.
We want Wayne to be alive. The Beacon of light is another clue. So many interesting clues in the eventful ending.
Thanks for the comment.
Okay this bothered me while reading this. For me i didn't want to know if he was dead or not and there is no way of knowing what happened to him unless you know Christopher Nolan yourself, Bruce specifically said that he didn't fear dying but only fear dying in that prison and knowing that Gotham would have been destroyed without him even trying to save the city he loves
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. Maybe Christopher Nolan and his brother don't really know what happened. They want the fans to put the clues together.
ReplyDeleteEven Batman never revealed his identity to Gordon such as, "Commissioner, I am Bruce Wayne". There is a mystery to Batman, which we notice encoding messages with clues. It is not too hard for Gordon to figure out that Bruce Wayne is this boy. Gordon know that only one person can know this moment.
Bruce does admit to fearing death. Of course, he connects the fear to Gotham falling without him. Does Bruce believe enough in Gotham that they can save themselves?
Ponder on that question. Does Batman believe that autopilot is the best option to save his city? How does Bruce escape the pit? He abandons the rope and focus on the intended target - the stone ledge.
Autopilot and and pilot. Drone and pilot? Even back in World War II, the U.S. manned bombers to carry out the atomic missions. If they had fully functional autopilot, would they have used it to drop the bombs?
Just because Fox learns of the autopilot repair is not evidence that Batman escapes in time. The 5-second shot is important. Watch the movie again, and focus on his facial expression.
Is Batman a man that is selfish? Would Batman risk the fate of Gotham on autopilot with seconds remaining. This is no ordinary bomb. The atomic bomb would have blown Gotham right off the map.
Rope or no rope. Rope is autopilot depending on guidance. No rope is choosing fate to survive. Batman chooses pilot to guide bomb outside of the city.
Have you watched Richard Gere movie Intersection? if you haven't, I plan to spoil one major scene. Vincent writes a letter to his girl that he wants to end their relationship. In the midst of seeing children, he changes his mind. He calls to leave her a message that wants to be with her and to have children. He is excited about this moment.
***Spoiler Alert***
Vincent is involved in a major accident. He eventually dies in a hospital. His wife hides the note from the girlfriend that is essentially the woman that split them apart. Sharon Stone's character (wife) thinks that hiding the note will conceal the truth to protect the girlfriend. However, the girlfriend heard his phone call. There are two truths to Vincent. The final truth is that he wants to live a life with the girlfriend.
Comment continues below.
Autopilot is the note. It is a clue to suggest Batman chooses autopilot. The real truth is that he probably knows that piloting the Bat plane puts the fate of Gotham in his hands. If the autopilot fails, then the bomb detonates.
DeleteIs Batman/Bruce selfish? We see his generous nature in his final will and testament. Really think whether Nolan wants this Alfred scene to be cliche. Is Nolan a writer that enjoys writing cliche scenes? Would Bruce and Selina be having lunch on the same exact moment as Alfred in an Italian Cafe? Autopilot is enough to suggest Bruce survives? Coincidence? Cliche?
Or is Alfred having a dream and or on the verge of seeing his last fantasy prior to dying? When people die, it is believed they see a collage of moments that mean the most to them. Alfred loves his Master Bruce to the point in which he would make the sacrifice to save his life.
Batman loves Gotham. He probably knows that allowing autopilot to guide the plane outside of Gotham is like hoping the city will overcome Bane. However, piloting the plane is like returning to Gotham to control fate.
People can change their mind in the end. What is planned 6 months ago is not set in stone. Bruce gives his Wayne Manor to the children. Would he have given his home if Blake never mentioned his funding had stopped the past few years?
Rope (autopilot is hope). Without rope (pilot is controlling fate). I'm using my film theory background, film experience, and movie knowledge to suggest that Batman/Bruce is dead. The movie tagline, "The Legend Ends". Blake is a new beginning that compliment "Rises". When a legend ends, a new hero rises.
What do you think? Check out this comment I left. Thanks for the comment above.
http://www.filmending.com/2012/07/the-dark-knight-rises-ending-dream.html#comment-form
Here's my vote for a dream...because in this reality, Bruce Wayne is equivalent to or even a bigger name than a Donald Trump. If Donald Trump were to die and then not try to hide his identity by changing his appearance even a little and go out to eat in public, no matter where it was, surely someone would report that "TRUMP IS ALIVE!"
ReplyDeleteI agree. No way that Bruce Wayne can dine in Europe after an atomic bomb almost destroyed Gotham City. The Gotham revolution is most likely global news. Besides 1945, no atomic bomb has been used on another city.
DeleteBruce Wayne is sitting in plain sight. No shades. No hat. A "Clean Slate" program only wipes out digital records. A dream sequence makes sense. However, many Batman fans use Inception as a copout to reject possible dream imagery.
Bruce Wayne is a famous person. I'm sure Gotham news reported Wayne's death. European people would recognize Wayne.
Are these flaws plot holes? Or is Nolan intending to trick us? My vote is also for a dream.
You're the first to identity this Bruce Wayne and famous notion. Good work. Thanks for commenting.
I don't think it's a dream at all.
DeleteThe whole idea of "Batman is a symbol: it could be anyone" was to create a suspense around whether or not Batman survives. But there's also the other angle to it: the mantle of Batman can be taken over by anyone who fitted the bill.
The whole point of Alfred is that since Bruce Wayne is old(er) now, may be it's time to think of a life beyond Batman, a life of retirement, a life for him.
So we have Blake who was like Robin throughout the movie, a sidekick, but is ready to take on from Batman now -- not as Batman -- but as the protector of Gotham. Bruce Wayne has finally accepted retirement and left the vigilante responsibilities to Blake.
One hint that Nolan gives to suggest that it IS Bruce Wayne alive in that final scene: the only items missing from BW's assets are the pearls. In the final scene, Selena is wearing them. I saw the movie three times.
Thanks for commenting.
DeleteI believe that Bruce would've lived this retirement life if he never engaged into crime fighting again. However, Bruce defied Alfred's wisdom. Alfred's feared a dark outcome.
Retirement is a weak theme. It doesn't explain the missing events. Nolan used a good scene to reveal Batman's identity to Gordon.
I believe Bruce's fate was to save Gotham. His life is predetermined to save Gotham. He wouldn't reveal his identity to Gordon if he didn't think something dark would happen. It is not that easy to survive one shot in saving Gotham when he failed twice jumping with a rope. I think he loses the rope to put 100 percent fate in his hands.
As for necklace, if I remember correctly, Bruce never mentioned to Alfred that he retrieved the necklace. Alfred made a joke about Bruce going home alone. Even if he mentioned he recovered the necklace, I believe Bruce took the necklace with him. After leaving the hole, he retrieved a new Bat suit, the necklace and the Bat plane.
The necklace is not a solid clue that places Bruce and Selina in Italy. It is too predictable to play out Alfred's wishes.
Bruce Wayne could have taken the necklace with him while on his fateful mission. In the end, people find comfort in sentimental objects that connect them to people they love most (i.e. Titanic).
The autopilot repair is performed far before learning about the atomic bomb. It could've been a routine fix to keep the plane in working order. I think it's Blake fate to protect Gotham.
Good points. Thanks for commenting.
Check out our new ending theory
http://www.filmending.com/2012/07/the-dark-knight-rises-ending-theory.html
He is a well known person, but he disappeared for 7 years in he first one to become batman and was eventually declared dead and not one person mentions seeing Bruce Wayne alive, even when he returns to the city that he is most renown.
ReplyDeleteI believe it is not a dream sequence, Alfred had no prior knowledge of salina and bruce so why would he dream of him being with her?
I think the rigged autopilot, the conversations wiith both Blake and Gordon ( respectively: telling Blake "anyone" could be batman, and using a deliberately vague story to identify himself that could also identify Blake because of
Their similar history.) shows it was his plan all along.
The apparent self sacrifice is what would be needed to make batman the hero Gotham needed and deserved and to regain widespread favor. He put everything in place for his symbol to live on. The dark knight "rising" is symbolic of batman reattaining the favor of Gotham
And becoming their protector again. Bruce has to live with the fear of corruption and crime consuming his city again while he takes a leap of faith in trusting another to carry on his symbol.
@Gregg,
DeleteGood explanation. In that aspect, it makes sense. Check out a recent ending theory we served up. It is based on analyzing the clues that suggest Bruce is physically death but remembered.
http://www.filmending.com/2012/07/the-dark-knight-rises-ending-theory.html
Thanks for commenting. Good points.
Remember what Ra's A; Ghul said: "There are many ways to be immortal". The statue errected in homage to the accomplishements and memory of Batman, the search light, Robin to carry on his legacy... Batman lives through these things. Does that make him alive?
ReplyDelete@Laurence,
DeleteYou're right! With our latest analysis, we suggested that Bruce Wayne died, Bat survives as a hero, and Nightwing assume his fate as protector of Gotham. Batman is alive. Bruce Wayne is dead, but alive in memory as orphans will look up to him.
Check out this new article of ending theory.
http://www.filmending.com/2012/07/the-dark-knight-rises-ending-theory.html
The answer is that does make Batman live on. Thanks for commenting.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I believe that Selina left with Clean Slate to start a new life. Her crimes are thus erased.
DeleteBruce Wayne died in the atomic blast. Batman lives on as a hero. Bruce Wayne is a hero to Gordon, Blake and the orphans. Bruce Wayne and Batman die, but both live on as heroes.
Thanks for commenting.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI see I wasn't clear on my first post, so I'll explain it better.
ReplyDeleteI think Bruce Wayne fell in love with Catwoman and gave up the role of Batman to someone else, because the one person that he loves(Catwoman) is a theif, Batman is a crime fighter at heart. Catwoman might have taken the money that bane was after and now her and Bruce
Wayne live like billionaire's. Put it like this, there's always something you got to give up
if you want everything you want.
@Israel,
ReplyDeleteThat's a good ending theory. Catwoman proved that money motivates her (i.e. double-crossing Batman). Bruce Wayne could have died in the pit).
It sounds like the Swordfish movie type of ending. In other heist movies, two people who you never think would end up together leave with the money (The Tourist).
The crime/crime fighter roles oppose one another. One has to choose. It is a conflict of interest to remain a crime fighter while harboring a criminal in Catwoman.
Thanks for sharing your theory. Good explanation.
I would say physics answers the question of whether or not batman really died at the end.
ReplyDeleteThe bomb had a 6 mile blast radius, so for batman to survive the blast he would have had to bail out at least 7 miles away he would have to have been travelling in excess of mach 7 or over 5000 miles per hour.
Soo he would have bailed out at mach 7? Sailed down to the water with his bat cape? What about the HUGE TIDAL WAVE that would have resulted from a nuke going off at sea.
But hey its batman after all I think nolan ended it this way so everyone gets what they want.
if you want him to live he does survive, if you want him dead he is.
I agree. I doubt that the Bat plane can fly at 5000 miles per hour. Maybe the atomic blast is minimized in water. Jumping out of the plane at MACH 5-7 would spell DEATH. True that we can choose that he died or survived.
DeleteThanks for commenting. You're the first person to mention physics of the tidal waves and flying speed. Good work!
After our second viewing of the movie yesterday, my friends and I had a few different things we noticed that we think contribute to the fact that Bruce is indeed ALIVE:
ReplyDelete-The entire movie, any time anyone ever saw Selina, it was all in black, as her alter ego. Nobody besides Bruce (when he went to her residence) saw her outside of her "Catwoman" personality. Alfred never saw her not wearing black; even as the 'maid', she was all in black. In the final scene at the cafe, she is dressed in blue and has her hair up, carefree, happy. She is also reacting to other people around her. If she (and Bruce) were truly figments of Alfred's imagination and/or in a dream sequence, she would have been wearing black, as that is how Alfred knew her.
-Pay attention to the sequence of events as Batman begins to fly the bomb out over Gotham and toward the water. We see him in the Bat, then we see Blake and the kids on the bridge, then back to the zoom-in on Batman's face, and then finally, the explosion out over the water. I do believe that the first time we see Batman take the bomb and fly out toward the water, we see Batman actually IN the Bat. But as the views shift from Blake and back to Batman, I believe we are seeing Batman WATCHING the bomb being carried out to the water by the Bat. IF this was still Blake's vision/POV, why are we being shown Batman's face and THEN a shot of the bomb exploding? Some may say it's because he feared death, but could it also be his facial expression telling us that he hoped the autopilot functioned correctly and that he spared everyone else while also sparing himself?
-Batman/Bruce gave Selina the "clean slate" for a reason. The "clean slate" was what she was going after this entire movie, and the way in which he just handed it off to her was completely anticlimactic. Why not just have him hand it off to her and have her disappear, then, never coming back to save him from Bane? IMO, there's no way we have her save him from Bane -- who's death at this point is both monumental and also underplayed -- only to have Batman die a few moments later in the explosion. The "clean slate" gives them both a new start in their new life together. Bruce and Selina, as we know them, can be together without truly "existing" as Bruce and Selina.
-Bruce's gravestone had no date of birth and no date of death on it. That, to me, is the biggest reason to think he's alive. They would have had no body to bury, regardless, if Bruce had truly been in that explosion. But the fact that they chose not to go with a DOB/DOD on the headstone says a lot. And why would more people from Gotham not be at his funeral service? I think it spoke volumes that the people he trusted/counted on the most were the ones there. They knew, deep down, that he was still alive. The scene with Alfred's "I failed you" was emotional and could argue the case that Bruce was dead, but could Alfred have also meant, "I failed you by walking away, and you were forced to make a choice to play dead and go into hiding somewhere else for the rest of your life"? We'll never know, but I think "I failed you" can have a lot of meanings where Alfred and Bruce are concerned.
-Why include the line at all (delivered to Fox) about the autopilot being fixed, if we are not to believe that Bruce didn't die?
-Batman's "a hero can be anyone" lines toward the end of the movie could have very well signified that he resigned himself to "moving on" after this was all over and the city was saved, anyway. He was broken down, beaten, but not yet defeated...he had just enough left in him to save the city and move on, if he so desired. BUT, he still had to go off knowing that someone would take his place as the person to protect Gotham.
Thanks for the comment.
DeleteThe black/blue clothing connection has little to do with rejecting the dream notion. I will request a few dream experts I know to evaluate the cafe scene.
Bruce Wayne's parents got murdered. He spent his latter adult life defending Gotham against criminals such as Selina. I don't see Bruce leaving with her to start a new life with her. Retirement theme is not that strong of an argument.
The autopilot repair was made long before he knew about the atomic bomb. He probably patched the autopilot after the turning point (engaging as Batman). His big decision look is to rush that atomic bomb out of Gotham quick.
Batman wasted too much time fighting Bane. He coerced him into revealing the whereabouts of the remote detonator. He listened to Miranda give another speech. Last thing on his mind is retirement and autopilot. Autopilot was a routine fix.
Clean Slate is intended to help Selina. She is a career criminal. Batman used Clean Slate as a bargaining chip to convince Selina to help. When Batman leaves Selina, I seriously doubt he is thinking the two of them will be together soon. He is on a mission to get rid of the bomb in time.
As Morgan Freeman said in Deep Impact movie, Heroes die and they are remembered.
More people were not at Bruce Wayne's funeral because it is a private engagement. Bruce was a recluse in his last days. Most people didn't know Batman’s true identity; otherwise, they would have attended his funeral.
Besides, Gotham honored Batman with a statue. Alfred feels he failed Bruce because he could have stayed. He left so easily. Most people blame themselves after a death. They feel responsible, thinking maybe they could have do something differently to save them.
They don't need a body to bury. The atomic explosion turned Bruce into nuclear ash. As for the date, continuity issues probably resulted in them forgetting to put a date. Moreover, they could have left off the dates to show that died understanding his meaning in life and that stamping his gravestone with a date and name doesn’t matter to prove his worth. Gordon’s Tale of Two Cities quote, Alfred, and even Blake being there are enough to remember the real hero.
Nolan includes "autopilot" to give people hope that he escaped. If you provide some clues, then we think there is a chance. If you eliminate all clues, you know 100 percent Bruce dies. Removing the Alfred café scene complicates the ending ever further.
The hero and coat quote is to tell Gordon that he is a hero for making Bruce who he is. Without Gordon consoling Bruce as a child when he lost his parents, he would have failed along the way. He wanted to thank him. Gordon is one that mentioned hero. The Gordon "identity factor" influenced Batman to show his gratitude. Bruce Wayne appreciates Gordon, even looking up to him as a hero. People make amends in the end. It is also common when soldiers go off to battle. It is like telling children you love them, knowing that you may die.
Bruce Wayne had a chance to move on. He accepted his fate, as no person in Gotham could single handedly save Gotham. The police were helpless. Bane controlled the city. Bruce Wayne was Gotham’s savior.
Bruce knew that Blake would take his place the second he visited the Wayne Manor in the setup, and when he saved Gordon's life in the sewer. He can read people very well. That is why he kept remained persistent with Selina to help him. Bruce is a good judge of character.
Thanks for the good points. Good analysis!
Guys he's alive!If you watch the scene with the last 5 seconds, you'll notice that there's air, meaning that a window or the roof of the bat is open..so he managed to escape somehow and lived..maybe it's excessive, but after all he's batman..he found a way..And about the cafe, Bruce knew that Alfred was going in this specific cafe, so he went there so Alfred knows that he's alive and happy.
ReplyDeleteOne last thing!I loved the Dark Knight franchise as much as you do, but i was wondering maybe we take this movie too seriously??After all it's a comic book movie and it is allowed to have such excesses..Whatever happened though, it was the best ending to make!!
Sorry for the previous post..i forgot that the nuclear bomb was hanged...
DeleteI agree that he is alive. Selina would not have been in Alfred's "dream" since his exposure to her was not sustained or as Bruce's love interest.
Delete@Quanah
DeleteAlfred can't control his dreams. Have you ever dreamed of events that you are beyond reality? See people who don't exist? Dream an entire story of a person you passed in a store for a split second?
We don't control our dreams unless we attempt lucid dreaming. Alfred can dream about any person and event. Dreaming about Selina, a side profile, is not evidence this scene is reality.
I believe it is either a dream, fantasy, imagination or maybe a hallucination. It is not real. The scene may serve as a fantasy for the audience to view the fantasy through Alfred's eyes.
We see a side profile of Selina. We can even suggest the scene is to show the audience Alfred's fantasy rather than occur in real-time as reality. Alfred shares his fantasy with Bruce:
" Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do."
How close is this quote to the Italian cafe? Why would we need another woman besides Selina to confirm a dream? It is too obvious to put Rachel or Miranda in the fantasy. Think about the dialogue and reflect back to the cafe scene.
We can dream an entire story of one person that we see for only a second. Dreams are made that way. It is our subconscious mind that projects the imagery. Thanks for commenting.
At what point did Bruce Wayne become a techno-wizard capable of out-witting Lucius Fox and fixing the autopilot? There has never been any indication that Wayne himself ever had such expertise. If he did, how did he get it? Did he have training at Devry between the two movies?
ReplyDeleteAll his past gadgets were outsourced --even Fox's sonar technology that he'd taken and perverted into a spying application. He didn't himself do that --he had hired others to take the technology and develop the app.
@mytincart,
DeleteI agree he is not capable of fixing the autopilot. I don't depend on the autopilot repair as a strong clue. It is a small clue that gives Fox some hope that Bruce took that route.
Most of the Batman fans say Bruce survived because of the autopilot. The autopilot is the top clue that gets the most attention
You're right Bruce's inability to repair the autopilot on his own. Depending on the timeline (not sure how long after the atomic blast that Fox discovers the autopilot repair), 6 months ago could be at the beginning of the movie.
I don't think he fixed the autopilot himself. When I mention he performed a repair, I'm suggesting he is signing off on the repair.
Thanks for the quality comment. Good insight!
Actually Lucius says he was being humble when he said it needed a more brilliant mind, and he meant a less busy mind- Wayne.
Delete@Jose,
DeleteMakes sense for Fox to state this to Bruce. It is a respectful way. Thanks.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNolan is smart enough..if he wanted us to know bruce is alive..the autopilot and other twists were enough..the fact that alfred later sees him only hints us like the inception top that all this is just a dream...even personally i would be more satisfied(to quote harvey dent) if he died a hero..
ReplyDelete@Aayush,
DeleteYou're right! I agree this Alfred ending is throwing out hints that is not what it seems. Nolan knows a great deal about dreams. He interviewed many dream experts and also stated that he wants to make another dream movie in the future that confronts the mind (Screen Rant interview last year).
We didn't need that cafe scene to connect the dots. The scene feels out of place, especially after the main characters have their moment of reflection. A perfect ending would be ending it with a quote.
The autopilot and twists are enough. It is like leading a person into an obvious trap. With the quote, we can interpret whether Bruce survives. Inserting the cafe scene that we hear about in the setup is suspect to a dream.
Thanks for contributing and for the necklace fact as well.
I think that the "ending" of the epic trilogy is just the ending of the Batman that Gotham was fearful of. Thus starting the new "hero" era. And the dark knight has "risen" to the hero of the people. There are more vilians that the city of Gotham has to endure, although it would be hard to top the cataclysmic events that happened in the last film. And I think that Blake is Robin and not Night wing. And if Blake is Robin....he is just a sidekick. And I think Batman will return with Robin as his sidekick. Also, Batman even states that he "could" use the auto pilot to take the bomb out if the city while talking to Gordon and catwoman at the end. If the auto pilot didn't work, like Fox had told him, then why would he think about using it....Hummmm.
ReplyDelete@ Greylinestatic,
DeleteGood facts. Mentioning the autopilot in the Gordon and Selina scene makes you think beyond his frame of mind during this moment of time.
The ending alone is like three movies. There is so many clues, facts, moments and twists. The autopilot dialogue is interesting.
Thanks for comment.
I do agree that that last scene is not real. Nolan is a good writer, and its far too 'cheesy' for it to be a real scene. My interpretation of that scene is supposed to be a way of restoring hope. For Alfred, and the audience. Throughout the movie, Alfred had lost hope in Bruce, Him telling Bruce about the note was a last ditch effort. We then never saw Alfred after that till the end. For them to show that it was Bruce and Selina, only something the audience would know, not Alfred, would suggest that they want to give the audience the feeling of hope that our hero survived, and is living happily ever after.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with, the fact that Bruce is dead, however. I think that it is supposed to be left up to guesses, of course. Nolan purposefully left in the fact that autopilot was fixed. And there really where many opportunities for Bruce to eject. There we several times, that the Bat flew REALLY close to the ground, as in when the bomb itself was dragging on the ground. Also, when we cut to the bus, i think is when he would have ejected. We see an explosion from the bat clearing the way, suggesting that it was low enough to possibly not make it over buildings. Yet, it easily made it over the bridge and was high up in the last shots.
All in all I can't say whether he is alive or not. some might find the indefinite ending 'cliche' but for the actual story of this trilogy, I think it fits really well. You know, hope and stuff. Plus, many of Nolan's films end with that indefinite ending, Inception of course being a good example.
The bat toy has an eject glider. That's how he escaped. While I have so many points I can put out to refute this dream thing, this toy has more weight to prove he could reasonably have survived the blast. Yes it's a toy, I know, but this would not have been approved if it contradicted the original vision of the movie.
DeleteThe toy is cool. Can this glider escape the bomb in time? Where did Batman decide to eject - to escape The Bat? In the city? In the ocean?
DeleteNot mentioning the glider is withholding a major clue that makes the cafe scene questionable.
Thanks for commenting.
@Nick,
DeleteYou served up a great explanation. Well done! It is too cliche, so Nolan is making us think again. We can view the cafe ending any way we prefer, either to suggest Bruce died or survived.
It really depends on:
-whether Batman ejected in time.
-his trust to use the autopilot without error
-the cafe ending imitating Alfred's previous fantasy
-many more
Your explanation to avoid suggesting Bruce is dead or alive is a good answer.
The Alfred quote describing his fantasy:
" Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do."
The Italian cafe is reminiscent of his fantasy.
Thanks again.
That article said that it was a dream cause on Alfred seeing Bruce in the cafe it didn't show any flashback of how he escaped from the explosion?
ReplyDeleteYeah I thought it was kinda silly how he could have gotten out and far enough away in the 5 seconds.... but I never considered it was Alfred dreaming.
While I would have liked to see how "exactly" he got away
The bit with Fox discovering that the Auto Pilot on the Bat was fixed is enough to know that the bit with Alfred is NOT a dream. Why else would they make that statement of "oh hey the Auto Pilot was fixed but Fox didn't know", if it was not to say... "oh hey Bruce didn't die afterall."
Batman even says to Catwoman when taking the Bomb "no auto pilot"
In hindsight we know he is lying when he says that.
He has no reason to lie unless he was thinking "I can use this chance to fake my death now"
It is bloody obvious that the scene with Alfred is not a dream and there is nothing in it to suggest that it was a dream.... which is a shame cause I would have prefered had Bruce actually died and not just quit... BATMAN would never just give up and hide
@Mokong,
DeleteI agree that a good ending is to have Bruce die. Quitting, retiring and faking his death are weak themes.
Read below on the Alfred quote. The cafe ending is almost too identical, such as a psychic prediction.
Are we sure Bruce fixed the autopilot? Do we see him repairing it? Chances are Bruce repaired the autopilot, but there is slight probability that another performed the service.
Thanks for commenting.
haven't read all the replies yet, but how about this point- Bruce Wayne and Batman are symbolically two different entities. So while yes, Batman dies in the eyes of everyone, Bruce Wayne lives on. First of all, Alfred didn't know that Selina and Bruce had a thing going, so that wouldn't clue him in into the dream sequence. Second, the time is all over the place in the rest of the movie, which means the 5 seconds left flash is meaningless and probably not related to the face scene. I would say the genius of the film is in the fact that Bruce fakes his own death to get away from Gotham and live his life as Alfred wanted, and Batman's for the symbol to "die as a hero". The whole time aspect to me is just a cinematographic clue of the kubrick style to let us know that time is meaningless in this film.
ReplyDelete@Jose,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. Appreciate the movie explanations.
The following Alfred quote is reminiscent of Italian cafe ending:
" Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do."
This is Alfred explaining his fantasy to Bruce. Why make the Italian cafe so obvious. The clues are concrete enough unless the cafe scene is intended to trick us.
I agree with your "Kubrick style" mention. Time and space are important in the movie since the fate of Gotham depends on them. We don't see too many flashbacks to leave the narrative. The cafe scene is there for a reason. We didn't need it.
Fantasy? Dream? Imagination? Realism?
Thanks for commenting.
These are all really great points. I agree with the notion that Batman died for Gotham city and I've been trying to convince my boyfriend the same, as he believes Batman is still alive.
ReplyDeleteHowever there is one point (I haven't come across explained in your theory, yet) that I do feel works against our theory, and I was hoping you'd have some sort of explanation for it.
Gordon finds that the Batman Signal on top of the DA building has been repaired. Now, I realise this could have been achieved before he died, but I fail to see how or when. I would hardly believe Batman would waste his time trying to repair it when Gotham was in chaos below. If it had been fixed beforehand, you would think someone would have noticed earlier?
However, if it is true he is alive and 'retired' then I don't understand why he would repair it if he doesn't plan on responding to it...
Thanks again for your insights.
Lucy
Hi Lucy,
DeleteThanks for the comment.
The Bat signal could have be repaired prior to Bane taking over. It is possible Blake was given the task to repair the Bat signal.
When Blake picks up the bag, we don't follow him. We go to the cafe scene. The Bat signal is confusing. It does give hope to a new protector of Gotham.
I doubt the clue is intended to imply Batman is alive. If we choose the "survival" route, then Bruce is busy making his rounds to collect a necklace, repair the light, drop off the bag, and to complete additional tasks prior to leaving with Selina who he deceived about the autopilot.
Therefore, the bat signal is another clue to give the movie audience and the characters hope that Bruce is alive. The Bat signal has been broken since Batman 2.
We can look more into explaining the Bat signal. If anyone commenting on the website wants to provide a good explanation on the Bat signal (rejecting that Bruce Wayne repairs it), we would all be interested in reading it.
Thanks again for commenting. Appreciate the support.
Honestly, I believe that Bruce Wayne is dead. Here are my reasons.
ReplyDeleteI think that the reason they put in the autopilot scene was to portray exactly how much of a hero Bruce is. He could have easily used autopilot. But he chose not to because that is what heroes do. He made the sacrifice to save Gotham. The autopilot thing was there just for emphasis on how much he actually did care about Gotham.
Also, I think that it would be too much of a coincidence that Bruce would show up at the exact same cafe at the exact same time that Alfred was at. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would be there. Alfred even said himself that he IMAGINES Bruce sitting there. Now that he is gone, it is too easy for him to see. He sees what he wants to see.
Notice that Batman mentions to Gordon that being a hero can be something as simple as putting a coat over a child and telling them that the world isn't over. I don't think it is a coincidence that it shows Blake loading kids on the bus because "They don't want to hear that the world is ending." In essence, Blake is throwing a coat on all of those kids. The torch is being passed from Bruce to Blake. As it was passed from Gordon to Bruce.
One more thing to take into account is the quote at the end of The Dark Knight. "You either DIE A HERO, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
@Logan,
ReplyDeleteExcellent analysis! Another commenter Jason and you made the strongest argument with valid points.
I never thought of Blake's putting a coat on the children to console them when the world is about to end for them. Good job. The Nolan brothers are definitely connecting the plot points together to make us all think.
One orphanage member said that this is an atomic bomb, suggesting they will not survive it. Blake replies back that we have to at least try to save the kids (vaguely based on memory). He has hope that trying is better than doing nothing.
That The Dark Knight quote is valuable. Another commenter also mentioned the quote, but theirs is based off of memory. You sharing the actual quote helps those to understand the fate of Batman/Bruce is leaving a hero.
We can see the ending as closure to a brilliant man who makes the ultimate sacrifice to save Gotham. Through Alfred's imagination, the Nolan brother's honor his courage to do what any person would have done. Batman tells Gordon the hero and a jacket.
It is like what that American Olympian running on a broken leg says, that he did what any person would do. Heroes make sacrifices to protect people. A hero can be anyone that performs a good deed.
Great work with the analysis. I'm enjoying the recent comments of the ending because many here are choosing to believe the majority, as we've seen on many movie websites. One Forbes writer refuses to think of the cafe as anything but real. He believes the clues are there to show the character arc.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2012/07/26/the-meaning-of-joseph-gordon-levitts-fate-in-the-dark-knight-rises-spoilers/
Thanks again for the great work!
I think Batman lives. Reason? because in the end we see the bomb counting down from 5, not Batman. Also because Alfred says he sees Bruce Wayne with a random woman and some CHILDREN. As for the grim expression on Bruce's face right before the bomb counts down from 5: He always has a grim look on his face as Batman. He didn't need to pilot the thing anymore because it was already way clear of Gotham. Bruce wasn't selfish because what if the autopilot somehow didn't work? and he went to some trouble to hook it on the bat and you can see that it's hard to fly the machine with that weight. I actually think that both scenarios are possible, he could have lived, he could have died. I like to believe he lived. To tell the truth Alfred knew if he caused too much ruckus it would make a scene and them people in Gotham might want him to return because it might show up on the news or something. Who else besides Bruce would give Blake the directions to the Batman place? To tell you the truth I actually think Christopher Nolan was going to kill Bruce Wayne but decided not to at the last second. Another reason is because Christian Bale says that Christopher Nolan could have another movie with the batman suit in it so that is kind of hinting that Batman lives on because why would he make a movie set before Batman Begins which starts when Bruce Wayne is a child?
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
DeleteOne commenter suggested that Alfred took care of Bruce Wayne's will such as turning over the Wayne Manor to the orphans and preparing the back for Blake.
We see Batman in the 5 second scene. Grim expression seems to fit The Tale of Two Cities story of a man who sacrificed his life to save Paris. Both characters know their sacrifice will help implement change in their cities.
I think Batman would need to pilot the atomic bomb to see that it leaves Gotham safely. He told Selina he has no autopilot. Therefore, Batman is withholding the autopilot to reinforce the sacrifice. He loved his city enough to give his life. Batman believed he hadn't given everything to Gotham.
The cafe scene is too predictable to be real. Nolan introduced Ra's hallucination and Alfred's fantasy into the plot. This gives him creative freedom to end with an ambiguous scene to question reality.
Many commenters are suggesting people in Europe would not identify with Bruce. If Alfred approached Bruce, this action would not create unwanted attention.
Alfred could have left the directions to Blake. That is an easy answer. The only challenge is to uncover he repaired the Bat signal. And at what time?
I doubt Nolan would make another Batman movie with Bale. Bale stated that he wanted to make another Batman movie with Nolan. However, another actor would probably assume the role.
There is too much emphasis on motifs and allegories. I believe Bruce Wayne is dead. Nolan killed a super hero that everyone liked. This is Nolan's Batman movies, so he empowered his creative freedom to deal out a shocking ending. I doubt Nolan will be making another Batman movie with Bale. This is it.
Thanks for commenting.
just like inception it is open to interpretation. I personally thought that he survived at the movies. but there is the possibility of him actually dying. but again just like your inception it is open to interpretation.
ReplyDeleteand by that i mean, people saying Chris Nolan knows whether he is dead or alive. but i don't think that he does. he may prefer him to be alive or dead but that is only his preference. the BEAUTY of it all is that you get to choose which one you like the best.
i get that people like the batman to be alive, but think about it. He was gone for 8 years and he was miserable. he was weak and broken and shattered. he was nothing without batman. his life experiences and loss of Rachel and everything made him miserable.
If he survived the atomic bomb, he would have gone back to that state. he knew it. would he want to go back to that? better not to go out as a hero? heroes don't retire.
on the other hand, in the film It is mentioned MANY times that the Dent/Harvey act was a lie and their whole justice system was based on a lie and that was ... bad?
Surely after the death of batman a same type of thing would happen. would Bruce want it to be based on a feeble lie again? The martyr is not a martyr?
All this for me personally makes me feel that it is better (but bitter :( ) to interpret that he is dead. even though movie goers love to have a happy ending in which the hero comes out kicking.
BUT if you interpret that he is alive, I totally get that and I think that is also a good ending to the story.
P.S. during the file when they were chanting (ish ish aza aza) I was chanting too. :P
P.P.S when Bruce died I teared up. :(
@Mostafa,
DeleteGreat analysis! You're right about Nolan not knowing whether Batman is dead or alive. It is better to leave the ending open-ended.
It is obvious you're passionate about movies. Good analysis on explaining the two sides (dead or alive). I think the ending is happy with either outcome.
TDKR ending does create excitement and heavy emotion. It is like watching an entire movie in the last 20 minutes. A lot of excitement.
Thanks again for sharing a great post.
but what was the whole purpose of that scene where they discover that bruce actually fixed the autopilot? Bruce knows the heartache his death would cause Alfred to feel so he let him know he was ok in the best way possible.
ReplyDeleteIn each batman movie there's those little tidbits and secondary story lines that lead to batman/bruce's triumphs by outwitting his adversaries OR mainly mr.fox hahaha
batman begins - bruce regaining full control of wayne enterprises by purchasing all the stock through shell companies and usurping William Earle's Control.
dark knight - having the password encryption set off a self detonate for the cell-radar sensor computer and thereby keeping mr. fox employed as bruce's slave armorer.
dark knight rises - bruce fixing the autopilot and surviving, ultimately saving the city, fixing his families reputation, passing off the torch (the symbol), and finally finding love.
@Master Sungjin,
DeleteYour analysis makes sense. Batman is supposed to win. Bruce Wayne is intelligent to defeat his enemies.
Batman never planned the outcome. He never knew anything about the nuclear bomb. The story arc conveys that he can't let go of his love for Rachel and leave Gotham and Batman behind.
I don't see Bruce faking his death to show up at the exact cafe Alfred spoke about in the movie setup.
However, you make some good points. Good thinking. Thanks.
Both Bruce Wayne and batman are alive Bruce faked his death to start a new life. But he can't be gone Blake is now starting out as the new batman. Yes batman not robin not nightwing batman. Which is why Bruce kept saying anyone can be batman. Also that would explain the new bat signal. But back to my point you are starting this career as batman you need people to help you out. Foxx will do what he can but Bruce had an Alfred, now he can be Blakes Alfred until he gets up and going. Just my thoughts
ReplyDelete@Rajeer88,
DeleteI still think Bruce Wayne is dead. He fakes his death in the comic book, but then Alfred dies. In the movie version, Bruce Wayne makes the heroic sacrifice to save Gotham City.
Anyone can become Batman. He is stating that it takes good will and courage to don the mask and cape. According to Joseph, he hasn't her anything about assuming a superhero role in Justice League or any upcoming Batman movies.
The film ending does make us think beyond the obvious. It is not a straightforward ending. Nolan is clever to construct an ending prior to laying out the setup and development (Act 1 & Act 2).
Thanks for commenting.
A lot of.people keep mentioning the fact that people would notice Bruce Wayne in Europe can someone explain the relevance of this? Gotham and the world do not know he is batman so they do not know he is dead! Only the few people who attend the funeral no or assume hes dead because they know he is batman!
ReplyDelete@Keizdol,
DeleteBruce Wayne is like Donald Trump. Essentially, people in Europe may know who Bruce Wayne is because U.S. news is reported there. The atomic bomb event is world event.
Would Bruce Wayne sit out in the open? Take a risk to show himself? Remember, Bruce Wayne Enterprises is a prominent corporation. Although Bruce Wayne disappeared out of the spotlight for 8 years, foreigners will likely recognize him.
You're right about the people who attended his funeral. The relevance of the European setting is that some people would know him. It would sway the facts that this cafe ending is not real.
Thanks for commenting.
How is Bruce Wayne's death expained to the Wayne enterprise board and people of Gotham?
DeleteThey leave out that exposition to imply the board accepts the dark news.
DeleteWe never know if Gordon tells Batman that Blake saved his life in the sewer. That information is implied.
I think the board is comfortable with the will. Fox will carry the torch to keep Wayne Enterprises operable.
Thanks for commenting.
Great title,mate.
ReplyDeletei'm big fan of Batman and i watched Dark Knight Rises today . The Ending of film is mystical . Ok we can say that Alfred dream about Bruce and because of it,he saw them at cafe . We can say that all people thought that Batman died and thats why there is a grave..
But did you look clear ?
1)Bat Singal which Gordon uses , it has repaired and looks so fresh and he smiles.
Other one , everyone know that auto pilot mode has fixed 6 months ago ,so why have they to show in the ending ?
Other one , also you know . Robin . why did Christoper Nolan show it us ?
Emrah
Good points.
DeleteThe film ending is like watching several movies all in one. It is a clever ending that makes us think.
I still believe Bruce Wayne died in the atomic explosion. The Bat signal, the autopilot, the bag, Blake, necklace, Selina, and a few other clues seem to give us hope that Bruce survived.
Every character has their moment to reflect on Batman and or Bruce. The ending A Tale of Two Cities quote, Selina not looking directly as us to hide her identity, and Blake acting as a hero to save the children convey to me that Bruce died. I also believe the entire pit experience sets the tone the rest of the way.
Batman tells Selina he doesn't have autopilot. He spends a lot of time trying to coerce Bane into giving up the remote detonator. It leads me to believe Bruce died as a hero.
Alfred told Bruce about his fantasy. I feel it is too obvious to position the two characters in the same cafe under the extreme circumstances,even if the event was several months later.
The last will and testament is another clue. It shows some conflict.
You're points are effective. If we choose to believe Bruce survived, then can go with your points. If we think Bruce died, we can reflect on the clues.
Thanks again for commenting.
Your points has meanings. yes,it is strange. Batman tells Selina he doesnt have autopilot but then they says that 6 months it has fixed. But imporant point is other The Dark Knight will be not , right? :( .
DeleteAnd did you get a any point about Batman's plane (Bat), at the ending some people say that it still spins after explotion but i missed it when i watched at theater .
Emrah
I think everyone's missed the point. Nolan loves endings that cause debate. Inception, The Prestige etc all feature deep thematic endings which pose a very strong question (usually breaking the 'restoration of reality/normality' found in most movies and blurring the line between real and fantasy). This ending was very cleverly architected to deliver what you the viewer would want in either case. If you want Batman to survive, there was no body shown (note Bane's comment earlier in the movie when Gordon rolled into the sewer), therefore no death (note also just a tombstone for Bruce but no casket/funeral/wake).
ReplyDeleteIf you think his death would be a fitting ending to the trilogy, you have the above scenes too! The closing scenes are open for equal interpretation. Bruce either died having sacrificed everything, or survived and finally let go of Batman (passing the baton onto Blake) by accepting his fear and letting himself hope again - acceptance and hope being the final stages of grief over the loss of his parents.
For me, as a long time fan of the character (since I was a kid), he'll always live on and the ending gives me just what I need to accept he's still alive, which for me was the Autopilot cellphone patch, not the Alfred scene.
One thing is certain, which I stated the second the credits rolled: "If there's one thing Nolan knows its an ending!"......
...that, and I'm devoting the rest of my life to building a VTOL aircraft that looks like the Bat Goddamit!
My english is terrible, but what if the bomb its desactivate by batman, someway he knows the bomb cant exploit, i hardly think Wayne put on risk gotham kiss selynas and wasting time..... Maybe he detonate the bat, off course ampliflyng the explotion. Theathricallty and deception are powerful agents for uninitiated: gordon, blake, citizens of gotham and etc... Wayne in the fose learn with the oldman with no eye to priorize life, to see the things in no so cinical ways like "you either die hero or you live enough to ser yourself become a villan" batman trascend that, HE RISE. Please apologize for my sucky english, i am not using translator. Lautaro from a little town from argentina.
ReplyDeleteCasting aside most of the metaphysic bull that i've seen on most of these threads, let me point out that the most likely way that Bruce Wayne survived was that he ejected, or just simply had the Bat hover for a second and got out, using the cover of the large cloud of black smoke created when he blew a hole through a building just before the Bat flew over the bridge with Blake and the school bus on it. Not sure if someone has already said this, just saying.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I WOULD have welcomed a little more testicular fortitude + gravitas from Nolan via the ACTUAL death of one Bruce Wayne, this essay (and 90% of the comment section) is the unfortunate result of the collision between stubbornness and "Nolan: Graaand HighMaster of Ambiguity" Syndrome, leading the victim to second guess and over-analyze to oblivion. Bats lives. The events of the denouement are Nolan's way of showing us this in highly playful and clever fashion. Call it catharsis for the tumultuous emotional wringer anyone with a pulse has been subjected to over the previous five minutes. Corny expository dialogue revealing the BW autopilot fix six months previous is a niiice lil' backrub that serves the twofold purpose of playful reminder Bruce has his shit together far more than he often lets on (he may be even more humble than Lucious) and allowing us to extrapolate how the climactic events may in fact have gone differently than the prior scenes suggested. Then, serene cafe scene gloriously affirms the ray of hope we've permitted to squeak from our aching hearts. THEN, verification Blake has inherited the condo. Bam! We end on not one but two glorious high notes. It's all right there, up in yo face, at face fucking value, and it really is that simple. Inception this is not...TDKR's final scenes carry an absolution and finality not present in the former that is (should be) obvious to anyone who isn't actively trying to convince themselves of something more ambiguous. Face it - BW found a way to embrace the logistics of age/physical frailty, fulfill both Alfred as well as his own dormant desire for a life beyond midnight batpod cruises, AND pass the torch/ensure an enduring symbol of hope for his city's citizens. Whether just a transparent pseudo-intellectual attempt to elevate oneself from their viewer brethren via a false construct of "deeper understanding" or merely a sad symptom of myopic, biased expectations from a filmmaker's past work, the whole "make a case for ambiguity" thing is, sometimes, just laughably inappropriate. Just enjoy it for what it is.
ReplyDeleteOh, hey, me again. Alternately, just read this:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.alternatetakes.co.uk/?2012,8,422
Then, call it a day.
Even if the cafe scene wasn't real, I don't think it was a dream as he was sleeping in his bed, he may have been imagining.So that way he could control what was going on.
ReplyDeleteI know this doesn't make sense, but I can't explain it that well.
It could be a dream in a sense that Nolan is manipulating us with pounding out the clues to ingrain in our minds that Bruce is alive. However, I'm giving everyone a fair opportunity to voice their opinions.
DeleteYou may think 90% of this comment section is due to stubbornness, but also check out all the other sections. There are additional 200-300 comments to view beyond this section. Also, you can visit other movie sites to read many diverse comments.
You may not think this is necessary. I think this thread motivated you to share your honest opinion. I view the Batman ending as a healthy discussion. I'm still not convinced Bruce Wayne is alive. We can debate back and forth for months.
I've had the same exact debates on many movies. I know the most popular discussions are recent movies that have ambiguous endings. I got insulted many times for being highly critical of The Cabin in the Woods movie. People get all emotional when I evaluate movies they enjoy.
If a person intends to work in the film industry, they need thick skin to accept criticism, insults, and whatever else comes their way. I admit criticism in one film school frustrated me (8 years ago). Film students will go the distance to humiliate their classmates.
Once I transfered to a university film school, I knew that staying firm in discussions - whether right or wrong - can get your point across. I run many movie websites as well as other websites. This movie ending website is probably the most popular.
I appreciate your highly engaging comments. I would rather discuss opposing viewpoints rather than write hundreds of articles with no audience to share their opinions.
If Nolan never made Inception, then we could eliminate the dream movie from this Batman discussion.
It wouldn't fit the trilogy to see Alfred going to sleep, and then having a dream about Bruce and Rachel. Showing the cafe ending makes people believe there is more to the scene than what is shown in plain sight. If every moviegoer believed Bruce survived, the poll on the right side panel would favor the ending as 100% reality.
Think about the power of the cafe ending. It wouldn't be consistent to show a dream as a dream. For example, watching Bruce sitting with Rachel would confirm it is a dream. She is dead. The central focus is Bruce's happiness. Alfred wanted Bruce to be happy. The cafe ending makes you think. Of course, the majority are confident the cafe ending is confirmation Bruce is alive. I heard the scar mentioned as a clue.
Dreams are not what they seem. If you dream of a tsunami tonight, it doesn't mean you will be involved in a major earthquake in the future (tsunamis convey releasing emotions). Dreams have hidden meanings. Alfred can't choose his dream. His dream project what his subconscious mind is processing without his conscious influence. Grief is a strong emotion.
You make valid points. The scene can represent a symbol, fantasy, imagination, dream and or reality. I can shoot a film to manipulate time and space. Filmmakers can show an image that is not real. The magic of movies enables us to convey time, space, causality, sound and narration.
Definitely visit again to share your viewpoints. I don't write about every movie ending since I'm a solo writer. However, I choose movie endings that are most popular to engage movie fans.
Thanks again.
Good movies live a much longer life and endings are the most effective in achieving this. There are different types of people. Kids and kind hearted people want Batman to live and they have planty to believe so with the ending. More critical people get into debates like this and the movie lives on.
ReplyDeleteI personally wish a different ending. I feel that having the Batman shown dead would have a longer, deeper impact on viewer, many more tears could be driven out of the audience. The end just swayed too qucikely to create the twist. Also, relationship between Batman and Catwoman could have gone deeper to make the ending more moving with the death of Batman.
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