The Dark Knight Rises movie is an in-depth exploration of fate, fear and hope. Christopher and Jonathan Nolan wrote a clever screenplay to close their Batman trilogy. Our ending theory attempts to debunk the clues in the movie ending.Batman fans are divisive as to whether Bruce Wayne lives or dies. We intend to explore the major clues to determine what we believe is the best outcome. If you haven't watched the movie yet, read The Dark Knight Rises ending theory at your own risk.
Movie Spoiler***
We believe Bruce Wayne died in the atomic blast. The majority of viewers reject this notion. Do you believe the protector of Gotham City is physically dead? Believe Bruce Wayne actually survived the atomic blast? Bruce Wayne died in the atomic blast. We base our The Dark Knight Rises theories on the most common arguments that put the following plot clues to the test:
• Bruce Wayne repaired the autopilot
• Selina is wearing the missing pearl necklace
• Bat signal is repaired
• John Blake is given a bag with Bat treats
• Clean Slate
• Alfred sees Bruce and Selina at an Italian cafe
The Nolan brothers wrote an epic movie script. The plot clues give us hope that Batman survives the atomic blast. We can choose to believe in underlying themes such as fear, hope, fate, and retirement. Most moviegoers believe Bruce Wayne is alive, so our ending theory is thus the minority in proving his death. According to several viewers, Christopher Nolan confirmed Bruce Wayne survived in The Dark Knight Rises movie. These commenters never provided a link to lead us to the Nolan interview.
We highly doubt that Christopher Nolan discussed his TDKR movie during the opening weekend. The plot clues (autopilot, pearl necklace, bat signal, bag, Clean Slate, and Italian cafe) give us hope that Bruce Wayne survived the atomic blast. We intend to challenge the plot clues to make a theoretical conclusion. We believe Bruce Wayne died in the atomic blast.
Bruce Wayne repaired the autopilot - Fox discovered that Bruce Wayne (maybe a contractor) repaired the autopilot 6 months ago, which preceded the introduction of the atomic bomb into the plot. One commenter believed Bruce Wayne contracted out the autopilot repair job. It is possible Bruce Wayne authorized the autopilot repair 6 months ago to ensure the Bat plane was good working order. What is significance of the autopilot? How does Bruce survive an atomic blast with an autopilot?
The autopilot is like cruise control. Most planes have an autopilot feature intended to fly a plane without a pilot. The autopilot flies a plane straightforward, but the function disallows any sharp maneuvering. Thus the majority think Batman set the autopilot to carry the atomic bomb, and then he escaped in another Bat pod. We consider the autopilot repair a contrived clue to create hope.
Selina is wearing the missing pearl necklace - Bruce told Alfred that a maid took his mother’s pearl necklace. He refused to call the police, knowing that there was more to the robbery than the pearl necklace. ). Bruce tracks down Selina at Miranda's party to reclaim the pearl necklace. The two share a kiss, and then Selina leaves with Bruce's sports car. Selina admitted to selling his fingerprints (cause). Bane's crew use Bruce’s fingerprints (stock market gamble) to fraudulently impact his fortune (effect
Alfred picks up Bruce. He pokes fun at Bruce, questioning his Master Bruce going home alone as rather shocking. We know that Bruce is a bachelor, so wining and dining many women come with the privilege of being wealthy. If we remember correctly, Bruce never mentions recovering the pearl necklace. It is implied that Bruce recovered the pearl necklace. In Bruce Wayne’s last will and testament, the pearl necklace is stated as missing from the Wayne estate.
In the Italian café scene, we see Selina wearing the pearl necklace. What viewers forget is that Bruce Wayne finally escapes the pit. It is possible Bruce travels back to the Bat Cave to retrieve another Bat suit (Bane busted up his mask)? Could Bruce have taken his mother's pearl necklace with him? Most people take sentimental items on their journey. We believe Bruce Wayne retrieved the pearl necklace. The Italian cafe scene represents an illusion of reality, likely showing Selina wearing the pearl necklace in a fantasy or a dream.
Bat signal is repaired - The Bat signal is a small clue. Does Bruce Wayne fix the Bat signal? Is Bruce Wayne the only person capable of fixing the Bat signal? Could another individual repair the Bat signal? John Blake? Alfred? (we know this sounds far-fetched) Catwoman? Fox? We know we're reaching to find another person, but these questions are asked to identify another person with the skill to fix the Bat signal. Maybe Selina repaired the Bat signal to honor Batman for helping her to rebuild her life. We think another person repaired the Bat signal.
John Blake is given a bag with Bat treats - Detective John Blake visited Bruce Wayne in the setup. He told Bruce of his childhood story. Blake indicated the orphan kids looked up to Bruce, including himself. The orphans dreamed that one day they could be like Bruce. Bruce gave the orphans hope to reach their dream. Blake also alerted Bruce his organization stopped funding the orphan program.
Bruce had no prior knowledge that Wayne Foundation ceased funding the program. Alfred informed Bruce that Wayne Enterprises’ profits funded the program. In the past few years, Wayne Enterprises' profits have declined below projections. Blake alerted Bruce that we need him (Batman). In this moment of time, Blake probably gained Bruce's trust. He also saved Gordon's life in the sewer. We are sure Bruce Wayne learned of Blake’s heroic actions. It is implied that Gordon somehow relayed to Bruce that Blake saved his life.
Bruce Wayne left Blake a bag as a precaution. Bruce sensed that a reliable backup plan must be put in order (Bane?). The bag represents a plan B option to preserve the fate of Gotham. Bruce designated John Blake as the next protector of Gotham. He made this decision prior before the pit prison. If Bruce Wayne as Batman died, then Blake would assume his role. Blake proved his worth long before Batman told him to wear a mask. We believe Bruce Wayne began preparing the bag in the setup and possibly after the pit escape. A recent commenter is suggesting Bruce Wayne prepared this bag once he survived the atomic blast. We disagree with this notion.
Clean Slate - Bruce Wayne is interested in Clean Slate as a bargaining chip to recruit Selina. Bruce Wayne realizes that Selina wants to escape her criminal history. Batman hopes Selina stays behind to help him fight Bane. However, she accepts Clean Slate to clear the tunnel. Selina is viewed as a selfish woman. She is like most black widow characters we see in classic Film Noir movies. Batman operates on strong moral values. He serves and protects Gotham to fill a void (losing his parents to a senseless crime). Selina clears the tunnel, but has a change of heart to rescue Batman in time. She fires a cannon at Bane, killing him in the process.
Causality is working again to show that fate is taking its course. If Selina drives through the tunnel, then Batman dies. Predetermined events put Bruce Wayne/Batman on course to meet his fate. It is possible that Catwoman repaired the Bat signal to honor Batman for giving her a chance to redeem her life (Clean Slate + taking atomic bomb to sea). It may sound far-fetched. We believe Clean Slate only applies to Selina.
Alfred sees Bruce at an Italian cafe - Alfred is having a fantasy. He is emotionally distraught. Alfred reveals his grief, telling the Bruce parents he let them down. In the turning point, Alfred shared his cafe fantasy with Bruce. He always wanted Bruce to find happiness. On his yearly holiday, Alfred imagined a happy Bruce sitting with his family. If Bruce continued down the Batman route, Alfred feared that something bad would happen to him.
In dreams, a person can see anything their minds project. It doesn't matter who we dream about. You can dream about imaginary people. Dreams are not what they seem. The Italian cafe scene is brightly lit, whereas we see dull visuals throughout the movie. We can suggest Gotham City is dark and dangerous, but the Italian café is reminiscent of his dream.
In the shot, Bruce Wayne is at the center of attention. Selina is just a nice fixture, an object of affection to populate the fantasy. The common excuse we hear most is that Alfred can only dream about women Bruce knows to validate the dream case. This idea is not exactly true. According to dream experts, lucid dreaming enables a dreamer to control the dream space. We're not suggesting Alfred is having a lucid dream. However, our theory is that we see Alfred’s point of view, indicating that his dream or fantasy represents his hope to see Bruce happy.
At Bruce's private memorial (Wayne gravesite with parents), Alfred is emotionally broken, shedding tears to reveal guilt that leaving Bruce to meet his dark fate is his fault. There is no way possible we see Alfred avoiding Bruce. Alfred imagines Bruce as happy, accepting his new life is in a better place. Commenters propose that Bruce Wayne faked his death to retire, fleeing to Italy with Selina to start a new life. Can Bruce Wayne leave Gotham behind? What happens if another major event influences Bruce to return back home again? Will people lose trust in Batman?
We simply don't have the time to watch Alfred grieve. His grief is implied exposition that fills a void. Alfred is a noble man that is highly regarded as Bruce’s protector. Past movies such as Gladiator, Armageddon, The Woman in Black, and The Sixth Sense convey happy endings. What happens to the protagonist in these films? In these movies, the protagonists sacrificed their lives to save another.
Alfred is either dreaming, imagining his last thought (Bruce's finding happiness), or is fantasizing that Bruce is finally happy. A protagonist can find happiness through death. Gordon reads a quote from a “The Tale of Two Cities” passage to honor Bruce Wayne. If you are familiar with the book, there is one character that dies understanding their meaning in life. We believe the Italian cafe is conveying a dream or a fantasy.
Last thoughts:
It is too risky for Batman to hope the autopilot saves Gotham City. Bruce realized a rope restricted him from reaching the ledge. Once Bruce strengthened his physical body and mind, he abandoned his subconscious fear to make the last jump without a rope. Despite the autopilot option, we believe Batman chooses to fly the Bat plane up until the end. Bruce Wayne makes the ultimate sacrifice to save Gotham.
One commenter claims that Batman abandons the Bat plane, and then calls to the second Bat to pick him up. Meanwhile, the Bat plane, without a pilot, flies the atomic bomb out to sea to explode. The majority of Batman fans are giving autopilot too much. A 6 megaton atomic bomb holds the power to wipe out an entire city.
Bruce understands that jumping without a rope puts the fate of Gotham in his hands. Batman flies the atomic bomb away, sacrificing his life to save Gotham. He is flying the Bat plane, which a shot shows him inside the cockpit with about 5-seconds remaining on the bomb timer. This shot is an accurate to put Batman on course to meet his fate. The rope foreshadows the flying sequence, while the ledge represents the intended target Bruce must reach. We believe that Batman deposited the atomic bomb in the sea to save Gotham City.
Do you think Bruce Wayne would risk Gotham City on autopilot? When Bruce repaired the autopilot, he knew nothing about any atomic bomb. Bane, Dr. Pavil Miranda and Fox knew about the atomic bomb. Bruce suffered inside a pit prison with a broken back. He watched Bane overtake Gotham City on a television set. The autopilot function symbolizes hope.
Once Bruce Wayne escaped the pit, he probably went back to the Wayne Manor to don a new Bat suit, retrieve a few gadgets and his mother’s pearl necklace, and then flew out of the Bat cave with the Bat plane. Bruce finds sentimental value in his mother’s pearl necklace. Through the pearl necklace, Bruce preserves good memories as a young boy. Bruce Wayne accomplished the third jump to show us that his fate is to save Gotham. He didn't make the jump on hope.
Batman beats Bane to a pulp. He demands the remote detonator. Batman never contemplated flying the atomic bomb outside of Gotham. He is not thinking about retirement. Batman hopes to find the remote detonator in time. Miranda stabs Batman in his back with a knife, sharing her childhood pit story to seek revenge. After Batman and Catwoman chase Miranda through the city streets, Miranda crashes on the lower level. She admits to sabotaging the energy core to prevent anyone from deactivating the atomic bomb. Miranda reveals her revenge plot, and then dies. Batman realizes he must act quickly to remove the bomb.
Batman ties the atomic bomb on a line. We see the rope symbol again.
Selina begs Batman that he does not need to make the trip. This is the second time Selina tries to persuade Batman (not sure if Bruce or Batman) to abandon the rescue plan (prior to giving instructions to clear the tunnel). Batman accepts his fate to save Gotham. He knows what he must do. Selina realizes that Batman is predetermined to save Gotham City, accepting his decision to remove the atomic bomb. She kisses Batman.
Gordon approaches Batman to tell him he is a hero. He admits never knowing his identity. Batman replies back that anyone can be a hero, even a man who puts a coat on the shoulders of a young boy to tell him the world is not about to end (not exact quote). It is then that Gordon discovers Batman's true identity. The "coat and hero" quote helps Gordon to reflect back on an important moment early in his police career.
In a flashback scene, Gordon is consoling a young Bruce Wayne to provide him comfort after his parents were murdered. Batman revealed his identity to Gordon because he knew they would never cross the same path again. Bruce wanted to thank Gordon for boosting his spirits during his darkest moment.
As previously mentioned, Bruce Wayne's predetermined events are in no way an accident. He is destined to save Gotham City. Batman flies the atomic bomb out to the sea. We see the atomic bomb hit a light post. When we see the skyline buildings explode, we know that Batman is flying the Bat plane to meet his fateful end.
Batman is not relying on hope (autopilot) to save Gotham. The 5-second bomb timer shot is accurate. We see Batman in the cockpit flying the Bat plane at a fast speed. There is no way Bruce Wayne survives the atomic blast. Batman is mortal man. He can die in real life.
We see a Batman statue constructed to honor the hero. His death gives Gotham hope. We see the atomic bomb explode, lighting up the horizon to shine a new beginning on Gotham. Detective Blake tosses his police badge into the river, showing that he has given up fighting crime as a peace officer. His disappointed look conveys – Bruce Wayne disguised as Batman – gave up his life to save people who nothing about his sacrifice. John Blake tells to Gordon that they don't even know who saved them. Gordon replies back that it is the Batman that saved us (not exact quote).
In our opinion, we think John Blake wanted Gordon to mention Bruce Wayne. Paying tribute to Bruce Wayne would honor the real man who saved millions of people. John Blake travels on a journey to find the Bat Cave. Bruce Wayne left behind the bag of Bat goods to guide him.
Bruce Wayne left the bag as a secondary measure once he learned of Blake's integrity (visited his home) and possibly discovering that he saved Gordon (implied). We see Blake slide with a rope tied around his waist, slide into the Bat Cave through a waterfall entrance. Bats begin to fly around Blake. He walks further in. In amazement, the platform begins to rise underneath him. Enter Robin John Blake, who we think will become Nightwing.
Bruce Wayne/Batman sacrificed his life to save Gotham, a city that filled his void after his parents died. The Alfred cafe scene is not reality; it is a dream sequence to convey Bruce's happiness through Alfred's mind. Bruce Wayne's fate has always been to save Gotham. He realized that abandoning fear, and accepting fate over hope, would save Gotham. There is no way that Bruce Wayne could save both Gotham and his life simultaneously. Faking his death with autopilot is thus impossible. Nolan never introduced us to another surprise Bat pod.
Saving Gotham City from an atomic bomb is much harder than jumping out of a hole. Batman would never take a risk to fail Gotham. He has one chance to get it right. Bruce Wayne probably reflected back to his third jump, knowing that choosing to go without a rope (putting fate in his hands) is the only way possible to safely remove the atomic bomb out of Gotham City. Ask yourself these questions:
Would Bruce Wayne risk Gotham City on a Bat plane malfunction?
Should saving Gotham City be that easy?
Would Bruce Wayne trust autopilot a third time? (failing twice with a rope)
Would Bruce Wayne rather make the sacrifice to fly the plane? (without a rope)
Bruce Wayne's fate guided his life to save Gotham City. Unfortunate events are determined as causality (cause and effect). His anger, pain, and fate guided his journey. Bruce Wayne died in the atomic blast, albeit the legend of Batman lives on in the city he saved from atomic annihilation. John Blake is handed the torch, now assuming his fate to become the next protector of Gotham.
What do you think about our The Dark Knight ending theories? Please share your ending theory. Thanks.
Best comments that use great movie facts to show Bruce Wayne dies:
Logan
Jasonm921
The problem is, your looking at it from perspective that requires it to be real. Batman isn't a documentary. When film makers put scenes such as the autopilot and the Italian restaurant into a movie, it is for a purpose. It is meant to tell you that he is still alive but has moved on from the Batman.If it was real life, you might have some solid evidence, but it isn't real. The filmakers concentrate on making a good film first, then a realistic one. Just because Bruce couldn't have known he would have to dispose of the bomb doesn't mean in the film-making process they would have thought of that.
ReplyDeleteI agree that analyzing this Batman movie between realism and movie life are two opposing viewpoints. Christopher Nolan and James Cameron are both writers and directors with visionary minds. Nolan knows how to make movies that create discussions on the very points we debate.
DeleteContinuity errors impact the movie plot. If we are watch a person drinking a Rock Star drink Back to the Future 1955 scene, then the realism is thus compromised although the movie is fiction.
Nolan already knew about the ending. The goal was to piece together the plot points to construct the movie.
We see Batman trying his best to find the remote detonator. He pounds on Bane to coerce him. Batman wants to know where this remote is. Up to the point in attaching the atomic bomb, Batman never realized he would be disposing the atomic bomb.
People are suggesting that he uses auto pilot. It doesn't matter whether Bruce Wayne fixed autopilot 6 months, the plot point is irrelevant to the outcome. Another common argument is that Batman wanted to retire and go off with Selina to enjoy his life. Bruce could have taken the pearls with him after retrieving a new Bat suit.
Batman movies are not real. People assume a person must dream about realism. Dreaming is real life. Alfred doesn't have to dream about a specific women to validate the dream. Based on many people on the web saying he must dream about Rachel, Miranda, and or another woman to compliment the dream argument, it does make any sense.
We dream about whatever our subconscious mind feels is appropriate. Our waking problems can enter our dreams. Alfred doesn't consider Rachel a part of Bruce's happiness. He knows the truth about her true feelings in her letter. If Selina represents Bruce's happiness, we would see her face. Maybe she would be positioned to face us.
Another argument is that people say this is not Inception. Dreams are reality. We all dream. The point I'm trying to make is that revealing a autopilot that has no relevant to whether Bruce dies or survives is invalid. Not a good clue.
It is like saying a person is guilty because the jury convicted them. The jury are random citizens that must debate the clues to make a decision. Based on previous cases, we can suggest that innocent people have ended up in prison.
When I've discussed films in a film theory setting, we analyze every aspect of the plot. Hitchock is one filmmaker who used storyboards to plan his scenes accordingly. He knew exact how to encode motifs, allegorical themes, and portray the Black Widow female character.
The Nolan brothers have a better ending than Bruce Wayne wanting to retire. I don't believe Bruce Wayne ponders on retiring while flying an atomic bomb over the sea. He is not thinking about to retire in the pit hole. His mind is focused on saving Gotham City. It is his fate. He is the only one capable of saving the city.
The atomic bomb is a new revelation. In Final Destination movie, people think the first kid to get strangled actually committed suicide. Alex knows his friend wanted to live. The clues reject the notion that death is the real killer.
On another website unrelated to movie, I probably wouldn't spent too much time dissecting the clues. If you read another discussion we're having on this website, you will know why I wrote this ending theory.
http://www.filmending.com/2012/07/the-dark-knight-ending-analyzed.html#comment-form
Thanks for the input. I agree that this is just a movie. Thanks again.
If you say that Alfred saw Selina and Bruce is not a valid proof that Bruce survived, then why has to be a valid proof something as trivial as the light? You said it before, this is not Inception so we can't infer that it was just an Alfred's dream. it is what it is.
DeleteAnd you said that is irrelevant that Bruce fixed the autopilot, the why Nolan show the scene if it was irrelevant? it has a porpuse, to show that Bruce indeed survived and that thing about Alfred is having a lucid dream it just sounds that you are looking for some random reason to say that Bruce died.
And you affirm that Bruce cant jump from the bat because his broken back then obviously he cant fight agaist bane and oh sorprise! he did.
Just look at the proofs, the autopilot fixed by Bruce, the bag he leave to Blake, the bat-sign so Gordon can call for the new batman (blake), that Alfred saw him wiht Selina.
@Miguel,
DeleteI will contact two dream experts I know to review that last scene. According to Michael Caine, Inception didn't end in a dream. Besides, lucid dreaming is possible because I have tried it several times.
I didn't suggest Alfred is lucid dreaming. Everything you see in movies may seem as they appear. Mind flashes are used to convey the conscious mind.
I can end a screenplay on a dream scene, or even just show the main characters. It doesn't mean it has to be a real scene. Screenwriters control the story. Directors interpret the story in their minds. Writers can care hallucinations, imagery characters, apparitions, and etc.
That Alfred could just a fantasy, a dream, and or an imagination. It could be hope that Alfred accepts Bruce found happiness. There are no limits in the writing process.
Nolan showed the Fox scene with autopilot to give him hope that maybe Bruce escaped in time. The more clues you have on the positive, the greater possibility people closest to him think he is alive.
Timeline - Bruce fixes autopilot far before knowing anything about an atomic bomb. How is that relevant? It is like me saying I tied my shoe or I changed my oil 3 months ago. It just suggests that Bruce has that option, so I hope he uses it against a powerful atomic bomb.
Remember, Bruce hadn't engaged as Batman for 8 years. After flying the Bat, he probably noticed, the autopilot required a fix. It is not like Bruce is fighting crime the past 8 years.
The autopilot probably needed a major repair. If Bruce fixes the autopilot after leaving the hole, then that shows more evidence that he understands what he is up against. Batman is wasting too much time beating Bane to a pulp to retrieve the detonator. He has clue of his future actions.
Autopilot is an irrelevant clue to give hope. Fox and fans hope that maybe Bruce ejected with an autopilot he had fixed. Autopilot is actually a terrible clue. Would Batman risk Gotham city on autopilot? That does not sound like Nolan's Batman. No room for any errors.
Batman can't jump two more times. He must hit the target on one try.
Batman even took the fall for Dent to keep the Dent Act intact. If Harvey Dent is revealed as a murderer, lawyers would have a field day against the city. All denied paroles would be reviewed.
Nolan is providing hope just like the Bat signal as well. You have to read this entire website to see our discussions. There are many The Dark Knight articles and discussions going on here that cover these points.
It was always Bruce's fate to save Gotham. Predetermined events leading back to his parents murder, Gordon putting a coat on his shoulders to console him, him becoming an orphan, Alfred becoming his legal guardian, running Wayne Enterprises, and fighting crime as Batman are not by chance. This is fate. Bruce's fate is to die protecting Gotham City. He can't save Gotham and his life at the same time. Bruce must pick and choose Gotham or his freedom. He is not selfish.
The Alfred scene is not a lucid dream. He is not controlling the surroundings like Leo.
I said that Bruce wasn't meant to make the first two jumps because Bane would have killed him with his injured back. If Batman can't fight Bane in semi-healthy state, then how is he going to fight him with a dislodged vertebra? He fought Bane with a healed back that the physician set back into place. He made the third jump after overcoming his fear. These are important themes.
Autopilot is hope. What does an autopilot fix from 6 months ago have to do with Bruce being alive? It gives Fox hope that he may have survived. Bruce left the bag behind after Blake proved his worth in visiting the Wayne Manor to talk about the orphans, how he looked up to Wayne since he was an orphan, telling him funding had stopped to the orphan foundation, mentioned we need him (Batman), and saving Gordon's life in the sewer. We don't need all the exposition for Bruce to understand Blake's integrity.
DeleteSelina is a criminal. Bruce's parents were murdered by criminals. He is not thinking once in his mind that this is my opportunity to bail out of this plane to retire and move off to Italy with a new life. And better yet, to leave with a career criminal. Bruce fights crime. Selina is a criminal. Clean Slate doesn't chance a mind. It cleans up a bad past.
I've discussed the plot so many times. I have written many screenplays to understand dramatic structure, emotional structure, plot points, exposition, scene reversals, humanizing characters, and etc. The motifs and allegories are there with the rope, fate, hope, and sacrifice. I took part in many film debates, discussions, and even have two degrees in film.
In my opinion, any person can look at ending in two ways. If you love movies, you can find explanations to determine the best outcome. Bruce is not thinking about retirement.
It is a weak theme to suggest Batman jumped out a plane supposedly flying very fast in time to avoid an atomic explosion. I wrote an atomic and nuclear bomb report that spanned 40 pages. a 6 megaton bomb can produce a 2-4 square miles blast, even in water. Nolan knows this stuff.
The autopilot fix is the weakest clue ever. Did Bruce swim all night with his puncture wound in the radiation water? He did this under extreme cold conditions that cause hypothermia?
The bag was left for Blake soon after Bruce realized Bane's strength in the turning point of the film. I'm confident the autopilot was also repaired then. The bag clue conveys he is preparing just in case something bad happens.
It is like a character that goes up against the stronger antagonist ever (Hector vs. Achilles). They leave behind information to another person they trust to escape or to assume their role.
Thanks for the comment.
I see a lot of fixation on the theme of hope. I disagree that a character's hope was central to this movie. In my opinion this was about the different characters rising to becoming something greater than what they originally were at the start of the film. This theme is also important as to why Nolan may have wanted Bruce to live.
DeleteYou don't see this from everyone as Gordon, fox, and Alfred had already established themselves from the previous films. Also, if you can imagine batman and Bruce Wayne as being separate egos (the tale of two cities reference makes this easy for me to accept)despite being of the same body, then you may agree that batman had already established himself as the selfless hero. (on a side note, I think most people would think that the ultimate hero gives his life to save a city so batman hadn't already established himself as that hero yet so let's hope he dies. I disagree, batman already showed he was willing to sacrifice his name. He was willing to become hated if that could save a city. If you could save a city and become a legendary hero at the cost of your life, or if you could save a city but no one would thank you for it, no one would credit you for it, instead you would be reviled, which option is the more difficult one?) point is, yes the title is dark knight rises and he had risen to become a great hero to Gotham, but to audience we already knew he was that selfless hero.
The people who rise are Blake, Selina kile, whoever the hell mathew modine was(if you really need another example) and most importantly, Bruce Wayne.
I think that Selina and Blake rising to become something more doesn't need to be put detail....I hope. But let's examine Bruce Wayne.
DeleteFrom the start of the movie, he's a recluse. He's no longer the playboy he was in the other movies. His primary reason for living, being batman, was no longer an option at that point. The woman he loved had died under horrible circumstances. He was alive, but not living.
Prior to bailing on Bruce, Alfred expresses these sentiments. He tells him what he had hoped for Bruce and the tragedy it is to him that nothing is turning out for Bruce the way he had wanted. I don't believe this was expressed to set up a dream sequence for the end. This was set up to show that bruce is a human being like rest of us.
I think I saw comments agreeing with the dream sequence yet also agreeing with Bruce as being human as we. If you can agree that he has the same feelings we do, then how can you not pity him. I believe that's what Nolan wanted the audience to feel. Of course we are going to root for batman, but he wanted us to root for Bruce Wayne as well because Bruce is just like us. What do we want from our own lives? I think many of us would say we want peace of mind, we want someone to love and who loves us, we want to be able to experience life without feeling as if we are shackled and restricted. To me, this movie was just as much or more about Bruce Wayne than it was batman. That,s why it's easy for me to accept hinas being alive and starting over with a more peaceful life with Selina.
Now if we have problems with accepting this alter ego thing, think back to the tale of two cities. I hadn't read it since high school but doppelgänger is a central idea to the story. One man saves a city, the woman he loves, by taking the place of another man (who he has similarities with) facing execution. I believe this was to show that batman "died" to save Gotham, but more importantly, to save Bruce Wayne.
Sorry for the likely many typos. I'm on my iPad, with the stupid auto correct, and I'm not looking back because almost never do I care enough to comment on anything so I'm not taking the chance to lose steam
I stated why I believe Nolan wanted Bruce to live. Let's disregard all of that and just look at the sequence for what it was. Let's not assume things based on other films. Let's look only at the dark knight rises. This film was made for the masses.
DeleteActually, let me address this point first. You' ll say it doesn't matter, Nolan will put his signature on it regardless. What's one of his signatures? Throwing us a twist, right. Making us believe one thing only to see something different. People are saying now, letting Bruce live is too clihe. It was expected, so something more is going on. I have trouble believing anyone with an open mind believes him living is what was expected. I don't know a single person going into this movie that thought bruce was coming out of this one alive. From, articles speculating, to trailers where Bruce says, "I haven't given them everything, not yet." to just water cooler conversation. Overwhelmingly, the thought was, Bruce dies. We believe throughout the whole movie and when he flies the bat out sea, we were all sad because batman just died. The twist can easily be that hey he actually lives.
But just look at the end sequence for what it is.
The ending is somewhat of an epilogue that lets us know where every major Player ends up. If this dream sequence is supposed to be Alfred on his death bed hoping to die peacefully, then why is it interwoven with all the other snippets. You see brief scenes go from character to character. They are mixed to show that this all happening within the same time frame. I mean maybe if the last clip was Alfred seeing Bruce, maybe I might be more inclined to believe this is Alfred dreaming on his death bed.
What about the music. The music is an important indicator of what we should feel from this scene. Leading up to Alfred's discovery, the music is bitter sweet. The same music was used at the end of the last film. Same scenes expressing melancholy because batman's name had just been sacrificed for the good of the city.
The music abruptly shifts when Alfred discovers Bruce. This same shift is scene in the dark knight when Gordon says "we'll chase him, because he can take it.". The tone of the music is appropo to the scene because it sets a tone of defiance, of perseverance, of overcoming the difficulties. In the dark knight, batman will persevere despite him being the villan, because he can take it. In tdkt, Bruce Wayne persevered and overcame what was up until that point, a very tortured soul. Please don't tell me that the music was meant to throw us off and its the perseverance of Alfred's mind to overcome his sorrow and to dream that Bruce is alive.
Why no Selina kile? Every major player gets face time. Why not her? Will you say it's because it goes along with her elusive characterization or to disappear into her new life? Still why not show her maybe stealing the pearls, taking them as a sad but sweet reminder of Bruce. Why not show the legacy that batman had left for her, why not show just a little what batman had meant to her? If you ask me, it's because She is with Bruce just like we saw. Or maybe you can say they left her out because the film is trying to trick us into believing she's not on her own but only elitist like ourselves can figure out its just all trickery and she is not really with Bruce because Alfred is dreaming
Um, the autopilot is relevant. If autopilot was never mentioned then batman has no out. We can't offer explanation as to how he managed to escape. I mean, if autopilot was never mentioned, we can still say it was the autopilot, but it'd be baseless.
I don't believe the autopilot was fixed with a specific goal in mind other than for the fact that fox said he needed someone with Bruce's mind to fix it. Basically he fixed it just because he could and ended glad he did. If you think Bruce isn't smart enough then think back to the previous film. He did something he called "beautiful." he did it pretty quickly too. Yeah, im pretty sure he can fix the autopilot.
DeleteLast point....
I think that any question to whether or not batman could do this or that....or how could he do this or that should be sufficiently answered by saying " because he is batman." but a big question is how did he survive the blast.? First, u need to consider that just because the timer said 5 seconds that doesn't mean he is still in the bat. Also, look on the net for a story on how volunteers survived an atomic blast being set off directly above them. I'm not even kidding. Finally, the bat toy being sold has a eject glider. If the toy has it, we have every right to assume, the movie bat has one too. They don't make these things without consultation.
My aspect to look at is when you lose sight of the bat. Could he have disengaged his cable and hit the throttle? Did he get as high as he could after dropping the bomb? Maybe, i myself do not know the lift capabilities of the bat
DeleteI understand- believe me, I do- But you are trying to poke holes in something un-poke-hole-able. Let's not forget that we're talking about the guy who was excommunicated from the Justice League for having Worst Case Scenario plans on each member incase they were ever turned. Even then, you could look to the movie with Adam West back in the day when he and Robin are climbing up the rope latter into the Batcopter over the ocean when a shark attacks him. Lo and behold, the man has shark repelant spray in the Batcopter. You guys have to understand, Batman has thought of everything. Anything AND everything that can, could, and will happen already has a contingency plan waiting to be put into effect. This is what makes him a super hero. Without his dilligence, meticulousness, and mental discipline the man would only be the playboy billionaire he pretends to be. This is why I have such a big problem with the theory written here. The Bat clearly had an egress system as seen in the movie, and Batman has more intestinal fortitude than to be defeated. This is him rising. Broken by Gotham's reckoning, left to reclaim the broken pieces of his psyche in a pit, Bruce Wayne returns to rip Bane's plan apart. And as he is faced with a conquering wall of adversity, the man once again RISES to the call of savior. There is no doubt in my mind that the determination that took him from Ra's al Ghul's mountains, to the heights of Gotham's skys shuttling a damn neutron bomb allowed him to just roll over and die. He is, after all, the Batman.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI believe that showing that the autopilot was fixed was meant to emphasize the gravity of the sacrifice taken by Bruce Wayne to save Gotham. The said scene is neither irrelevant nor a proof that Wayne lives on. It was there to show how different a hero is to a normal person a midst a risky choice that would save everyone including the hero, bringing him into the limelight, which batman himself avoids, and a sure choice that will save all of Gotham at the cost of the hero's life... just my two cents.
ReplyDelete@David,
DeleteThanks for the comment.
Good points. Good clue to show that Batman is just like us. We know he doesn't have any special powers. Bruce must make the biggest decision of his life to save Gotham.
We see an important flashback of a younger Gordon and a young boy (Bruce Wayne). I'm not sure of his current age and age as a kid when his parents die. This scene conveys that Batman is like us. In his dark world, Bruce Wayne identifies Gordon as a hero for consoling him.
Bruce carries this important memory around with him. As for the autopilot, revealing it gives us hope that Bruce survives. Nolan piles on the clues in the ending. Many people look at the clue as the primary reason that Bruce is supposedly alive in the end.
Should we think Bruce repaired the autopilot after flying the Bat to escape the police. The Nolan brother reveal the autopilot as a significant, but then mentions 6 months as an exact time. 6 months is important. No atomic bomb entered the story yet.
We see Bruce struggle to escape the pit. On the opposing side, we have watched Batman operate so freely in Gotham. It is like Clark Kent with his superpowers. In the old Superman II film, a normal guy in a diner pummeled him.
A hero can be anyone. We can be a hero for walking a person across the street. It doesn't matter whether we save the world or do a good deed, we are considered heroes. Batman defers Gordon's hero, but the "identity" mention influences him to reveal an important memory.
Thanks for discussing the internal motivation of the autopilot amid a major decision to save Gotham.
Your conclusions are speculation and are questions for the sake of questions.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty clear what happened at the end. Your ending is not satisfying as a conclusion and the one thing Nolan wanted to do with his trilogy was conclude it satisfied.
Why would they show the light, auto-pilot and Bruce with Selena Kyle in quick succession.
Occam's Razor buddy.
@David,
ReplyDeleteI suppose Bruce retiring and escaping his fate as Batman is satisfying? He fixes an autopilot 6 months prior to an event he knows nothing about.
Bruce leaves to Italy with a career criminal, the same type of criminal that probably murdered his parents. His legacy as Batman lacks integrity then.
We have to mention parents because Nolan entered the "coat and hero" event into the equation to reflect back on Bruce as a child with Gordon.
There is no good explanation how Bruce escaped the atomic blast. He is in the plane with 5 seconds remaining. Nolan knows the power of an atomic bomb. He interviewed dream experts to make Inception. We're sure he conducted his research on physics.
If the movie is so clear at the end, fill in the plot holes. Share with us the events as they happen in chronological order.
Why leave open so many plot holes that lack substance? Inception is a lucid dreaming movie that ends without a dream. We see a few mind flashes and one hallucination in The Dark Knight Rises. Nolan set a tone.
They show the light, autopilot and Bruce and Selina in succession to give you hope he survived. The entire pit obstacle is about hope and fate (the rope has symbolism/failing the jumps). If these ending clues are not offered, then you can conclude Bruce is dead.
Check out the comments on the other articles listed next to the side panel. There are a few that agree Bruce Wayne died.
When Nolan elaborates on the ending, then you can visit again to say, "I told you so." Until that time, we don't buy the clues as concrete.
Thanks for commenting.
A very good statement i found on reddit was
ReplyDelete"Alfred looks up at the end, but only because he notices his tab was paid for. I noticed this when he brings out his credit card, only to pause and then look up and nod a "thank you" nod to Bruce. He slips his card back in his wallet and the movie ends. This is also in contrast to his fantasy vision during the first part of the movie, where he is actively looking for Bruce among the crowd.
To me at least, this leads me to believe Bruce survived, is with Kyle, and Alfred is happy" - Kenny419
@David,
DeleteThat's a strong point. Thanks for posting this statement. This clue is powerful to establish realism.
One thing I have a problem with is the Italian cafe scene playing out almost similar to his fantasy. If the Nolan brothers never reveal Alfred's fantasy in the turning point, then we have nothing to reflect upon. I mention fantasy as the environment rather than Bruce and Selina.
There are no rules to dreaming. If a person dreams about someone they never met (Selina), it doesn't mean it is not a dream. To say that there is no way of Alfred to dream about Selina is suggesting that there are restrictions to dreaming.
We see people all day long. We dream of people who do not exist. We may dream about someone we see, but are not the center of attention. If you go to a party, your mind records people. The visual imagery is recorded into your subconscious mind.
Without thinking about a person, you may dream of people you don't remember seeing. You can also dream about people who don't exist. The power of dreaming enables as humans to experience fantasy.
In the statement you shared, Bruce possibly paying Alfred's bill is more powerful than rejecting the dream due to Alfred never realizing Selina is relevant to Bruce/Batman.
Thank for sharing this statement. Goreat clue!
Wrong. Nice article, but wrong. Bruce Wayne lives. End of story. You read way too much symbolism into the movie.
ReplyDeleteAs partial evidence, check: http://screenrant.com/dark-knight-rises-ending-christopher-nolan-christian-bale-jmar-175233/
This is where Christian Bale states, "But… if Chris came to me with a script and said, ‘You know what? There is another story’ then I would love the challenge of making a fourth one work.”"
As more partial evidence: http://chrisnolan.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne
Further, this is not Inception. An ambiguous ending is not needed here, and adds no weight to the story. Nolan doesn't remake his own movies, so there is no need to go into a highly complex and needles deconstruction of what is already a beautifully shot film that was good, but could have been better. When Mr. Nolan, his brother, and Goyer build that many obvious clues to indicate Bruce survived, it means he did. Everything else is speculation. It might be fun, but is fruitless.
Thanks Philip. Inception is a lucid dreaming movie that ends with reality. I disagree the ending is straightforward to confirm Bruce Wayne survives.
DeleteRetirement and or wanting a new life is too obvious. The clues give us hope that Bruce Wayne survives.
Deconstructing the movie to challenge the clues raise questions of possible endings. We will Bruce Wayne dies. Filling in the plot holes to explain Bruce survived the blast involves many theories.
Thanks for sharing the link and commenting. If you feel compelled in doing so, share your ending theory.
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ReplyDeleteDisagree. We are set up -also called "foreshadowing"- from the beginning that Bruce would live. That whole moment with Alfred hoping he would see them sets us up so that he would actually see them at the end. This happens at the beginning because all good movies have a circular motion, often starting where they end. Bruce's journey is not to accept death- he states clearly in the film he isn't afraid of death, and that is why Alfred leaves him. Instead his journey is to return to the living, and accept a life beyond his parents and beyond his dead girlfriend Rachel. The hero of the film often has to learn how to do the thing that is hardest for him or her- in the Dark Knight he had to kill his friend- here he has to learn how to live beyond Batman. So while Batman "dies" Bruce Wayne lives.
ReplyDeleteEditing is designed to be nonlinear, especially in a Christopher Nolan film. Remember this whole piece is fiction, its artificial. We jump through time and space, and Nolan never uses fades, wipes, or titles to tell us were we are. We have to use our own minds to figure out we are in another country, or it's suddenly winter. This keeps us actively thinking. Just as we watch Robin getting attacked by Bane's thugs while Batman rescues Gordon at the same time. How the hell did Batman jump space from Gordon to rescue Robin so quickly unless its the use of a "montage." The whole "5 seconds left and we see Batman's face" argument is bullshit because it's designed to keep us in suspense that perhaps he did die. Perhaps that shot was meant to have happened while he was flying through the city and Nolan cut it in later. Batman could have jumped out on the buildings. Batman could have had a boat out there. Filmmakers leave things to our imaginations as much as they show things. We are never shown how Bruce got from the prison halfway across the world to Gotham, so by your logic perhaps he never left and this was all just a dream.
And Selina is a better match than anyone else for Bruce. In the Dark Knight Rachel can't be with Bruce because he's gotten too dark, too out there. He has gone into a world she can't understand. Compare that with Selina who also comes from that world. You can make arguments about her ethics but look at most healthy relationships, there is as much challenge as there is compliment.
Speaking as a film student- don't read too much into it. The music and the completion of the montage is about an idea, that Bruce lives. That he was able to overcome himself, his death wish, and his past. He could become a new person someplace else. That is a lot harder than dying, because it is the death of the self and not the body. That is our modern hero.
@John,
DeleteQuality comment with good points. You presented a strong TDKR case with valid points.
The ending may be as simple as several clues to lead us into the Italian cafe. People use the common,"This is not Inception" to debate my theories. However, Inception is a dream movies that ends with reality. C. Nolan stated,"I always believed that if you make with ambiguity, it needs to be based on a true interpretation"(Wired.co.uk)
Is is possible the Nolan is basing his Italian cafe scene on ambiguity just for mere fact that he wants to convey that a hero doesn't have to live in order to find happiness?
With the amount of hardship I experience daily, I find that there times I ask God to help me escape this morbid reality. I still continue to pursue my writing dream, even when thieves rob us on our relocation move - many possessions and intellectual property - to take everything we own, our graduate degrees are now deemed worthless, we missed opportunities and experienced many setbacks over years become commonplace themes. You develop immunity to problems. It is also tough to run many websites that produce traffic, but in return you don't make any revenue while others have 2% of your traffic and make good revenue.
What I'm implying is that you may want to quit living or pursue a dream; however, the desire to help others can inspire you to keep trying. Would Bruce Wayne leave Gotham City to start a new life in Europe? Is retirement a strong enough theme?
If I ask questions for the sake of considering possible outcomes, then people will scold my analysis. I'm still confident the ending is not straightforward enough to be certain of Bruce Wayne's fate.
Can you argue the ending in favor that Bruce dies? Can a movie not about dreams have a fantasy ending?
Thanks for commenting. I appreciate your quality film analysis.
Hi, i just came back from a second viewing of the movie. While the rest of the plot/themes of the movie is clearer now than after the first viewing i'm a bit puzzled why Nolan would make the death/retirement as ambiguous as it (imo) is. I said to some of my batman-loving friends before watching the movie that i feared he would do something like that, but i really didn't think Nolan would after being down that road before in more fitting occasions (inception, memento?), and that i felt that it would be out of place in his Batman movies.
ReplyDeleteWhat is Nolan's intention? Hard to tell. I don't know if he's commented on the ending himself. Did he intend to make it open-ended or was it by error? What about all the clues pointing in the different directions. Could we be seeing things that the director never indented or thought about. You can plan something, but still have small errors in script,filming,props etc. that you never intended contradict your own vision or idea of what happens. Dunno where i'm going here, it's just that i thought an ambigious end to bruce/batman did take away some of the closure or satisfaction of the whole batman story for me. Maybe i'm simple for wanting such, but some of my fav movies are from David Lynch, so it's not like i want everything fed by spoon, but still, i just thought it didn't fit into these movies.
If Nolan wanted what we see in the café scene in the end to be straightforward and literals, why was the scene staged exactly as in Alfred's earlier visits. Bruce sitting at the same table, at the same chair etc. which would indicate it being wishful thinking. This alone keeps it from being simple, but as i said earlier, for me there is no clear answer, and you can make a good case for either explanatios. Was this intentional or some blemish from the director, i don't know.
Enough babbling from me, just one thing i wanted to add to the discussion which might favor the theory that he died in the explosion. It might have been pointed out already but towards the end Selina tells Batman that he's already given Gotham everything, to which he replies "not everything", which would indicate the ultimate sacrifice, his life. This sort of builds on the notion that he's long foreseen his destiny.
@Mel,
DeleteThanks for sharing the quality analysis. I agree that if we choose to believe in the obvious that Bruce survives, then the Nolan brothers went to great lengths with reiterating the main clues. It is almost redundant.
A few movie spoilers mentioned that serving up John Blake's real first name is overly predictable. Whereas I'm getting flack for taking the Bruce Wayne died theory route, I really believe the ending is open for interpretation.
One commenter with film experience indicated the majority believe Bruce Wayne survives. They identify with the majority. However, this commenter dissected the movie ending to make cinematic connections. In their honest opinion, they couldn't answer whether Bruce is dead or alive.
We can look at the most common clues. I agree that Nolan seems to go the distance to show that Bruce is somehow alive (if you choose to believe he is alive).
I would like to read The Dark Knight Rises screenplay. Most screenwriters identify the time and place. If they are using a dream sequence, they use a parenthetical to show this. I know from reading The Dark Knight screenplay, the Nolan brothers are specific in showing the action, dialogue, scenes, place, time, and etc.
As you mentioned, I feel that Bruce Wayne realized his fate long ago. Everything Bruce does in life is connects him to making the ultimate sacrifice. "Not everything" is a great line. The only other thing Batman can do is to save Gotham. I feel that it is too risky for Batman to jump out of the Bat plane, ahead of blowing up the skyline buildings. In this theory, the fate of Gotham hinges on whether autopilot will deliver the atomic, nuclear, or neutron (mention all three since some are sticklers).
You're not babbling. You provided some excellent points to contribute to this ending theory discussion. Nolan choosing to pound away at obvious clues makes us think if in fact Bruce is dead or alive.
Funny you mention "wishful thinking." Another commenter on a movie website noted the cafe scene as wishful thinking that Bruce survives. Why show the Bat plane flying in another direction? It is conflicting with the 180 degree rule (not mandatory), but definitely effective to keep a film realistic. If we see the Bat plane with Batman in the cockpit, we believe he is flying the atomic bomb out to sea.
Why would Nolan shoot Batman traveling in another Bat plane that somehow flew to him with autopilot? It is complicated to connect the dots. I know Batman is just a comic book character, and some indicated we shouldn't take the movie seriously, but the intriguing mystery is what really happened in the time Batman lifted off with the atomic bomb up until the explosion?
One day, Nolan will discuss the ending more in detail. We can finally put these ending theories to rest. It is all about the Batman ending right now. The majority oppose that Bruce Wayne dies. I read many possible theories that explore the timeline. I'm not convinced in the obvious clues. For all I know, the entire ending is a dream or fantasy.
Choosing to believe the majority is accepting that Bruce Wayne survives without a doubt. We hear there is no way Alfred can dream about Selina because he has never met her. Even so, they say Alfred doesn't know Bruce/Batman and Selina have chemistry. There is no actual dream rule that states you can't dream about people you never met.
DeleteAt this very moment, I am not feeling that well. After taking medication, I took a nap. I had vivid dreams spanning many events. I woke up having this unsettling feeling that one day I will die. The last time I had this feeling was in 2006, while in a film discussion at UCSB. I used to drive 200 miles to college per day. I attended class from morning to late night. I worked Friday-Sun and another weekday. I was so fatigued that my dreams were constantly about examinations, tsunamis, overflowing toilets and etc. I dream often of people I never met, even people I don't know but have seen at one point or another. Our mind is like a film camera. It records every visual.
The element of fear surfaces one we begin to contemplate whether we have given everything in life to find happiness. Every person views happiness in a different light.
We fear death because our time on Earth must have meaning. Dying too young, never accomplishing dreams, and leaving the world without making amends can play into our fear. I admit I fear death. The Knowing movie end is an example of having faith to know that with a end comes a new beginning.
If we choose to believe in Bruce surviving the atom blast, then Nolan overexposes that all Bruce wants is to retire from Batman and find happiness with a woman. Serving up multiple clue tricks the average moviegoer in to accepting the obvious. These viewers will challenge opposing viewpoints with stating that Bruce survives because of the autopilot. No thought goes into their answer.
Many Batman fans suggest Batman is flying the Bat plane in the opposite direction to prepare a bag, fix the bat signal, retrieve the pearls, and to eventually make his way out to Europe at a later date. Of course, the timeline is over several months.
I appreciate the comment. You made many Interesting points. This is a fun discussion. Thanks!
Selina isn't wearing the necklace at the italian cafe...so cross out that theory...i've now watched the scene many times...
ReplyDelete@Aayush,
DeleteThanks for sharing a strong point (Selina is not wearing the necklace) that gives the minority some debating firepower.
Mentioning the necklace is missing from the Wayne Estate is one clue the majority of viewers validate as substantial evidence to prove Bruce is alive. They claim Selina is wearing this necklace at the Italian cafe.
Thank you sharing this important fact. I appreciate the comments.
Sorry guys... go watch the film again and pay more attention. Selina IS wearing the pearls at the end. Selina wearing the pearls in the cafe is even mentioned in the novelization(which I didn't read until after I had seen the film several times and already noticed she was wearing the necklace).
DeleteAnother viewer who has watched the movie as many times as you claimed Selina is not wearing the pearls. She is not even a dominant character in the cafe scene. Many viewers have search to find out who Bruce is sitting with at the cafe.
DeleteIn Miller's The Dark Knight, Bruce fakes his death while Alfred dies.
The possibilities are there to debate all major clues. Alfred knows the necklace was never recovered. Bruce never tells him. It could be implied he retrieves the necklace. Alfred has a good memory to remember everyone at the party.
He can easily dream about Selina. In most instances, we don't control our dreams. Our subconscious mind projects the images - whether real or fiction. If Selina is important, we would see her front and center. She would be facing us.
The necklace is a small clue. It is not a definitive clue to sway the minority.
Thanks for commenting.
Only Bootleg quality, but the pearls are clearly visible:
Deletehttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--jLLxGT5qKU/UA_f2BtpHWI/AAAAAAAAD4I/UndbC25fNyA/s640/d1.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9Xbutr-wiCY/UA_f2foQL5I/AAAAAAAAD4Q/alPxuiuBh0Q/s640/d2.jpg
The ending from the novelization:
Deletehttp://pantyfire.tumblr.com/post/27929443393/last-few-pages-of-the-dark-knight-rises-relevant-john
Earlier in the movie, Lucius Fox states that the autopilot wasn't very much of a problem, just too time-consuming because he's so busy. Additionally, Batman did take a chance on Catwoman when asked her to help and she even turned him down. (He was something like "Stay here and help" and she said "You're going to lose" then left. Batman said "Not if you help" and she declined.) That's kind of a big risk considering if he loses, Gotham's dead.
ReplyDeleteWould Bruce Wayne risk Gotham City on a Bat plane malfunction? Yes, because he relies on his gadgets and the autopilot of the Batmobile constantly.
Should saving Gotham City be that easy? Yes, what's difficult is escaping life as the Batman.
Would Bruce Wayne trust autopilot a third time? (failing twice with a rope) The rope didn't work for him because he needed the fear of death (or his dedication to Gotham) to make the jump. There wasn't a way that he needed the fear of death there to drive/pilot or anything.
Would Bruce Wayne rather make the sacrifice to fly the plane? (without a rope) No. If anything, Bruce would make Alfred happy. Also, I believed that the rope wasn't autopilot; it was just how he learned that fear is important. Batman is supposed as smart as he is combative. It's expected for him to always have a backup plan.
The Batmobile has saved him countless times in various iterations of Batman.
The Dark Knight Rises showed how Bruce managed to live the life he wanted, and still leave Gotham in safe hands.
Who goes looking for a former billionaire that was presumed dead in a riot?
It's fair to accept that you believe Batman died while I believe he lived. He's the Batman! Everyone's allowed to interpret in their own way. But for me, Bruce deserved more than dying as a sacrifice.
Also, if you want, you can go see people debate this with better points than mine here:
Deletehttp://slumz.boxden.com/f218/dark-knight-rises-full-spoiler-detailed-explanation-beginning-end-7-22-2012-long-read-1788123/index2.html
Please stop dancing around peoples points, you failed to address many issues in the previous thread.
ReplyDeleteYou keep saying Batman would never trust an autopilot, so why would he fix it then?! Just for the sake of it? Because he wanted to be prepared of course, and him using autopilot is not impossible. Of course Batmans words were "no autopilot" and of course he did pilot the Bat safely out of the City. But the moment he felt it was safe, is it impossible to imagine he engaged the autopilot? Another point people miss is the fact the Bat was recovered and the computer was accessed to reveal the autopilot was fixed. A possibility is that Batman took the bomb out to Sea and then dropped it into the water. With the bomb sinking immersed by tons of water the blast radius would diminish vastly from 6 miles to maybe not even a quarter of that. When you see Batman flying out do you believe he managed to fly 6 miles so quickly, if so it is not hard to believe he ditched the bomb into the water and managed to fly away in the Bat. The Bat of course not destroyed in the blast suggesting it was nowhere near the explosion.
It is now my theory Bruce had fought his demons both physically and mentally, and decided Batman would die but Bruce would live on. It makes absolutely no sense for Alfred to see Selina at the Cafe, Rachel yes, a random woman yes but not Selina who Alfred knew as a thief. Also, why would Alfred imagine her wearing pearls which did not belong to her. It was real and Bruce gave them to her.
Please use facts from the film, not guesswork. Like you say about Jim Gordon telling Batman how Blake saved his life. It the grand scheme of things it would not even be mentioned. Bruce left that bag after Batmans death to pass on the baton. It would be silly to think Batman would leave the Batcave to Blake as a plan B. Batman was trained by Ras al Ghul, and if he could not stop Bane what chance would Blake have. Bruce would mentor Blake to be Batmans replacement.
I have my theories. You have yours. The fact is Alfred said this:
Delete" " Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do."
You think it's impossible to dream about people your barely know? Conduct dream research to understand dreams. Dreams are not as obvious as films, they are much deeper - subconscious mind.
Theories are based on hypothesis. Your statements are not fact-based. We can't verify them.
You can share your theories with the readers. I can choose mine.
Thanks for commenting.
I like how the end of the movie is open to interpretation. We can never say for certain if bruce wayne is alive or dead but I am of the mind that Alfred's whole sequence at the end is not real, I mean how could he see Bruce Wayne alive and not react with stronger emotion?
ReplyDeleteIt seems Alfred went into his fantasy world and this time around says thank you to bruce wayne in that same fantasy, this is his way of closure after grieving bruce's death. He is simply imagining bruce happy finally at peace.
It is clever of Nolan to leave it open ended so that discussions like this will happen and people will keep watching the movie again and again. Many will hope their hero isn't dead and chose to believe it real while others will chose to believe it is a dream. It is a reflection of our hope and desire for a "happy ending" that makes us believe Bruce is alive and well. In psychology they call it projection.
@Karl,
DeleteI agree with your analysis. Most moviegoers are choosing to take the predictable and cliche route.
You said it perfectly with "He is simply imagining Bruce happy finally at peace". People can't get past Selina and the pearl necklace.
Common argument is that Alfred can't dream or imagine Selina because he never met her. How many times have we dreamed about fictitious people? There are rules to dreaming, fantasizing, imagining, and hallucinating. We can remember things that we see for a split second. The mind is a complex system.
Nolan is clever to keep The Dark Knight Rises competitive with an ambiguous cafe ending. We will probably be discussing the Batman movie several months from now. The DVD release will create additional discussions and debates.
The cafe scene split the audience into two categories - dreamer and realism. The moviegoer has hope Bruce survived the blast. There are many clues pointing to the ending rejecting the clues such as Tale of Two Cities reference and Alfred's fantasy.
Thanks for commenting. Great analysis.
Not sure if anyone has come to this conclusion yet but here's my theory: Superman saves Batman. He flies in at the last second, scoops up Batman, flies safely away shielding Bats from the blast.
ReplyDeleteGood easy explanation. Nolan's Batman is saved by a superhuman entity. Maybe this is purpose of showing the Superman movie trailer in the previews.
DeleteGood for laughs though. Thanks for commenting.
did you read the novelization by Darthmuppet? you didn't comment that message. thanks to your post now i'm completely sure that Batman survives. thanks.
DeleteI think part of the ending had to do with Nolan wanting to end this story his way. Now how many superhero stories end with the hero retiring and living a normal live with someone he cared for.
ReplyDeleteAlso Selina was a criminal but the man who killed his parents would have killed anyone to get what he wanted. Selina on the other hand never did. She had to chance to end the Wayne family at the very beginning.
It also showed that Bruce's whole life was full of misery and revenge. But finally after Alfred left and he knew this would be his only chance to leave the bat behind. Alfred did tell him that the women he loved wanted to be with Harvey. So at the end Alfred saw Wayne together with someone that cared for him and loved him.
He got the bat wing after he saved he Selina and Fox. When got the bat wing he knew there was a bomb going off in 12 hours. As it was said in movie he was very intelligent. So when got the bat wing I am sure at the time he was thinking of multiple was of get rid of it. If he couldn't disarm it what would be his next logic step. That would be to get it where no one could be harmed. He easily could have escape. At the beginning he wasn't able to stand but by the end he could beat Bane.
At the end when Blake gets his map to the cave, new bat signal, and pearls missing doesn't mean he died and did those early. How could he know that he was going to die. When did he have time after coming back to leave coordinates to the cave and build a new bat signal. The city was in shambles and thugs everywhere. If Selina did leave the bat signal as her way of saying thank you, why didn't they show that? As another poster said, everyone else had snippets at the end to show their own personal ending. As for Alfred, Wayne showed up there to give him his dream come true. Alfred stood by Bruce through it all and watched him just spiral out of control. First he became Batman to revenge his parents, then became a recluse, try to take on powerful enemy after being injured and retired for 8 years for being hated, and then he thought he had killed himself. Thinking Wayne did all of this and never once took care of himself and tried to have a life.
The way I seen it was Wayne lived, Blake was to carry on as the hero, Gordon finally figured out who Batman was, Selina got her clean slate, and Alfred ,who has seen Master Wayne suffer all his life physically and emotionally, got to see Bruce happy. Enjoying life.
For those who believe that Alfred was dreaming at the end, how would you explain Bruce's scar on his forehead (from after his fight with Bane)?
ReplyDeleteYou could argue that Alfred could have imagined the extent of Bruce's injuries, but to be able to imagine a scar at the exact spot of where Bruce was injured is pushing it. Face it, Bruce Wayne is alive at the end
@dhh3,
DeleteGood point on the scar. However, there are no restrictions to show the audience a fantasy rather than reveal actual details of Bruce Wayne.
Should we think Nolan is so detailed as to maintain continuity in the entire 2+ hour production? Maybe Nolan knows that a moviegoer such as yourself will see the scar.
I still believe Bruce Wayne is dead. The scene is how we see it. It is what it is. It doesn't have tot be from Alfred's exact perspective. Bruce is the main dream symbol. His surroundings and appearance are irrelevant to the scene. Bruce Wayne is dead at the end of the movie.
Thanks for commenting.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteClutching at straws. You use the statement "this may seem far fetched" way too many times to attempt to present anywhere near an acceptable argument. The "cliche" ending is more feasible than most of what you've said, like anyone else but Bruce fixing the bat signal. Even if you think it's a cliche ending for a Nolan movie do you really think Nolan would do "far fetched"? I say absolutely not, I've never used that phrase to describe any plot point he's ever written. If you have to use "far fetched" arguments to disprove the more obvious answer, maybe the obvious answer is the correct one.
ReplyDeleteAlso, we see Bruce take the necklace off Selena at the ball and we also see him return to the "batcave" he used in TDR to get the suit that's stored there because Bain ruined (and confiscated) the other one, he doesn't suit up in the batcave under Wayne Manor, therefore he would have gotten the necklace after the explosion and possibly also put the bag together for Robin (though it doesn't really natter when he put the bag together).
I just seems like you're making stuff up because you don't want to believe Nolan made an ending you don't like. But to believe he left all these holes to be filled in by the imagination of the viewer really isn't any better. Bane's plan was to give Gotham false hope, I doubt Nolan had he same intent.
@JAG,
DeleteThanks for commenting. I must be that good to make things up about The Dark Knight Rises. This is one of 20 articles I've written about TDKR. This theory article is over 10 pages of content alone. I've written hundreds of comments to debate the ending.
I suppose I can imagine the ending as a fantasy. Alfred's dialogue in the beginning shows evidence the ending is not reality.
I would need a wild imagination to suggest Nolan intended to trick the majority with a fill-in the plot holes movie game. There is no disrespect in mentioning "far-fetched" as something Nolan would not do.
You think pounding out the obvious clues, giving every character a moment of truth to know that Bruce is alive, is concrete? We wouldn't need a cafe ending to show us evidence that Bruce is alive. I will go out on a limb to convey that this cafe ending is not reality.
That's good for you that you never used "far-fetched" to convey any previous Nolan film. If you analyze the entire film again, you will notice that every question raised in the setup is answered in the ending.
I mentioned Bruce removing the pearl necklace off Selina's neck a dozen times. It is implied that Alfred knows about Bruce taking back the pearl necklace. We can think that Bruce never share the news with Alfred. Alfred asked Bruce that is it just him going home? As the audience, we know that Alfred is making reference to Bruce not going hope with a woman.
On the screen, we never see Bruce mention to Alfred about retrieving the pearl necklace. We also never hear Gordon tell Batman that Blake saved his life. It is left up to the viewer to fill-in the plot holes. We have to interpret the information.
There is no exact science to dreams. Too many people have the same exact dreams. They all have the same type of waking problems.
DeleteI know this because I have written many dream articles to discuss dreams with these dreamers. They share details of their dreams. It is no coincidence that dreamers from all over the world have a tsunami dream, three suns dream, overflowing toilet dreams, yellow spider dreams, examination dreams, leaping frog dreams, teeth falling out dreams and many other dreams.
Dream searches arrive from all over the world. When people arrive here to discredit the cafe ending as not a dream, they use the "Alfred can't dream about a person he has never met" as their argument. That is wrong. You can dream and imagine things that your conscious mind is not thinking. Alfred has seen Selina.
We have a subconscious mind that records all events in real-time. We also remember past traumatic events that we try to forget. Thousands of viewers question the cafe scene as a dream and or reality. The cafe ending is not clear. You think Nolan would never do this?
You use "possibly" about the Robin bag because you don't know the exact explanation. It matters when Bruce puts the bag together. If Bruce prepared the bag after the explosion, then that implies he survived the explosion.
DeleteIf Bruce put the bag together after learning of Blake's integrity at Wayne Manor and when he saved Gordon in the sewer, then that shows evidence Bruce is dead. However, just possibly Alfred handled the bag on behalf of Bruce.
We're not watching an entire 10 hour film to show us all the exposition. Major plot points are most important, but revealing the little details can explain the entire plot.
After initial viewing on July 20, 2012, I thought Bruce survived through mass perception. Nonetheless, I assessed the film in another light to question the plot clues and the ambiguous cafe ending.
Don't think that I'm one of the few people who think the ending is anything other than real, because thousands of viewers think the same exact thing. They won't debate the ending out of fear that the majority will attack their theories and opinions.
According to you, we as viewers should abandon filling-in the plot holes with our imagination. Does Nolan intend to make straightforward movies so that we can move on to the next popular film? I think not.
You have a right to your opinion. It's good that you're sharing your opinion. Definitely check out the several articles on this website and on several of my other websites. Read the hundreds of comments.
Afterward, come back to this comment section to discuss the ending. We already discussed many of the points you are challenging here.
Bane is not only giving false hope, he wants to watch Gotham to evaporate. He is just as much a follower as the people. Bane is acting on pure emotion to satisfy Miranda's desires. You can see this in Bane's eyes, in the scene where Batman pounds the pulp out of him. Bane will do anything for Miranda, a.k.a. Talia.
It is like those movies where the woman will convince another weak man to carry out a reckless plan. The woman empowers emotion to persuade the man (i.e. Black windows in Film Noir).
You seriously believe Nolan would not give false hope? Do you understand the Inception ending 100%? Most people are still trying to figure out this ending years later. This Batman ending is not as obvious. We can say the ending is cliche or over-the-top.
If you were Bruce, would you go to great lengths to show up a designated cafe in Italy? Bruce's actions suggest he is a great listener to hear Alfred share his fantasy and wish to see Bruce find happiness under distress - learning that Rachel never loved him. Alfred must be mentally strong to hold back his emotions. Maybe Alfred cried out all of his tears at the private funeral.
In my opinion, the cafe ending is not real. If the cafe scene is real, then Bruce is not real. Either way, Bruce is not really there. If it's a dream, Bruce is a dream symbol. The cafe scene can function as a fantasy, hallucination, and or an imagination. If so, Bruce is imagined being there.
Thanks again for commenting.
There are no loose ends to compensate for if you believe Bruce survived, there are 6 loose ends to compensate for you you believe he died. So far, Nolan doesn't do loose ends.
ReplyDeleteWhen I said "filling in plot holes" I was referring the the very loose ends you address in this article. The 6 points you bring up can easily be answered by "Bruce survived" or you can believed he died and therefore have to make stuff up about the what really a happened the end. Believing he died leaves too many unanswered questions.
We see Alfred have his fantasy and have his hopes dashed as the man he is looking at turns around and is not Bruce. I don't see his dialogue as evidence the end is not real. He is expressing a fantasy, a hope he is very aware has not been realized. One thing you have seem to have missed is that in this movie (which you have noted is about hope) hopes are eventually realized time and time again. All of Banes plots of a false hope fail. Bruce escapes the prison and Gotham survives the take over. It counters the themes of the movie to then leave the audience with an ambiguous ending and false hope. It reinforces the themes of the movie for Alfred (and the audience), like Bruce and Gotham to have his faith rewarded and hopes realized.
It doesn't matter when Bruce set up the bag for Robin and set things in order for Wayne Manor to be given to the orphanage. You don't write a Will only if you're planning to commit suicide. He could have set it up after the explosion or when he decided to be batman again because he knew he'd be risking his life, doesn't mean he was planning to die. But the batsignal and the pearl necklace are 2 things he had to have done after the explosion. there are no other explanations, at least not any that aren't "far fetched"
I know you're not the only one who see it the way you do, there's also website for people who think the world is flat. Strength in numbers doesn't apply to everything.
I wouldn't ever use the "Alfred can't dream about someone he never met" argument. Partly because he meets Selena in the first scene and see's her picture on the computer in the same scene he tells Bruce about the cafe (not the same scene he tells him about Rachel btw) But manly because it's unnecessary to go there to explain why it's not a dream. I won't go into the reasons Alfred the character would not hallucinate and actually believe he saw Bruce. But I will present this. it would be horrible writing for Nolan to bring in a thematic element from a totally film and introduce it in the conclusion of trilogy where those themes were never a factor. In addition, some people have never seen Inception, and I'm sure others have seen it and not realized it was made by the same person. These are completely different movies and should be viewed as such. That movie was a set up for it's ambiguous conclusion, the entire movie teases the question of what is real, indeed that's what that movie is about. This entire trilogy never once questions reality. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of a deus ex machina conclusion and I don't think Nolan would do that. I admit it's a little cliche that he lives, but cliche is better than what you're offering. Yes, I do think that Nolan intended to make this a straightforward movie, Batman Beings and The Dark Knight were straightforward movies. I'm willing to bet that when Nolan is finally interviewed about this he'll laugh that it was even a debate and say "if I make an Inception 2, I'll call it Inception 2".
Thanks for the reply.
@JAG,
DeleteThat is what makes the TDKR an interesting movie. The ending is sparking so much discussion. We are still talking about the ending after two months. I'm sure people will be debating the ending a few years from now.
I don't have a problem with Bruce Wayne living or dying. We can look beyond the obvious to imply Gordon told Batman that Blake saved him. Or we can look back to Blake and Wayne having a conversation. Bruce already knows Blake is worthy. This is established in Act 1.
What is most interesting is that Inception may actually have ended as real rather than a lucid dream. I won't debate Inception since I need to delver further into analyzing the movie. It explores so many advanced dream theories. I'll leave Inception up to the film buffs, Nolan fans, and movie fans to interpret.
I don't it would be bad writing to make us think that whether Alfred is dreaming or experiencing reality. He established the fantasy in Alfred's story. It is like if a random person tells you that you will meet a person with all the answers to guide your future. This person will show up at a subway in NYC at an exact time, place, and wearing a messenger hat. We then enter a metaphysical movie such as The Adjustment Bureau.
I understand that The Dark Knight Rises is a realistic movie. There is no metaphysics involved. However, dreams are real. We even hear dreams and nightmares as part of medication side effects. Our minds can choose to dream up fantasies, strange events, weird occurrences, end of the world predictions, future events, and things we never think about. We can also dream to find closure.
Alfred is distraught at the private ceremony. We would not want to end the trilogy without knowing Alfred's fate. He is the most important person to Bruce. He feels responsible. It is good writing to have an ambiguous ending that is not straightforward.
You may believe there is more to prove that he is dead than with him being alive. This is what makes court cases interesting. Guilty people can walk free, whereas innocent people are convicted. I especially like The Green Mile with the metaphysical premise.
I only mention Inception because most people who disapprove say, "This is not Inception". They never provide any explanations.
Thanks for commenting.
In Christopher Nolans' Inception ending he has the given the freedom to the viewer to make the decision regarding the ending; where it is real or true? and Nolan did the same thing for this movie. One can argue batman is dead and one can argue batman is alive, and both of these arguments are valid. It is finally comes to what you want to believe.
ReplyDeleteAnyway your note regarding autopilot is not valid.
Thanks for commenting. I agree there are multiple ways to interpret the ending. Many film theorists, movie critics, film buffs and moviegoers can view the TDKR ending differently. There is no right or wrong way.
DeleteIt is like suggesting John Coffey is guilty in The Green Mile movie. Only Tom Hanks' character can see the truth. However, the rest of the guards believe in Coffey because they see the truth. They watch Coffey heal an ill woman. They cry at the end.
As for the autopilot, I have written so many posts overall several movie websites on the TDKR that I probably made a reference about the autopilot that is different from another comment or post.
Thanks for commenting.
I actually like some of your theories, I just think its funny that you think Blake will be night wing. His name is ROBIN as we find out at the end of the movie. Come on guys, use some common sense. He's obviously going to be robin, not nightwing.
ReplyDeleteI actually like some of your theories, I just think its funny that you think Blake will be night wing. His name is ROBIN as we find out at the end of the movie. Come on guys, use some common sense. He's obviously going to be robin, not nightwing.
ReplyDeleteThanks. There are a few Blake theories. The Robin is one of those concrete clues to drop an obvious hint to moviegoers that his name is Robin. We didn't really need to know his first name is Robin.
DeleteHe may be Robin, Nightwing, Batman, and nothing at all. Joseph indicated he has no idea where this John Blake character is going.
Thanks for commenting.
Discussing proofs of Bruce's survival with you is like banging one's head against a stone wall. One of the people previously mentioned in a post on this page an important point about the scar on Bruce's head seen by Alfred in the final sequence. And you think that's also a part of the dream ? Why not make the entire movie a dream of Alfred's, while you're at it ?! On one hand, you ask for concrete proofs to believe Bruce lived, and on the other, you propound your " it's a dream anything can happen" logic, whenever faced with the prospect of admitting that your conclusion is incorrect. Alfred could imagine seeing a scar on Bruce's head he never knew of, imagine seeing his bill paid too, but Batman couldn't use an autopilot he had installed himself for some particular reason ? I mean, you talk about Batman thinking of autopilot as too risky to use. Then what the hell did he install it for ? Obviously, he has faith in his technology, that his his great weapon, isn't that the whole point about Batman being a billionaire ? So that he can afford to use technology in his fight against crime. Batman knew while installing autopilot that he could have had to use it, he wouldn't have installed it just for kicks. Grow up man, and if you just want Bruce to die, admit it and stop interpreting the movie's actual ending as what you wanted it to be.
ReplyDeleteI seriously doubt the scar is proof Bruce Wayne is alive. A few hundred out of millions of moviegoers mentioned the scar. The scar is not a strong clue.
DeleteBatman told Selina he has no autopilot. Why tell the woman he plans to leave with he has no autopilot?
Why would Batman waste valuable time trying to coerce Bane to give up the remote detonator?
People don't choose to dream about exact details? We are not in a lucid dream. I never indicated TDKR has a lucid dream ending.
Who is absolutely right? Any person can prove a point with valid facts. There is no right answer to religion, movies, politics, Heaven, Hell, Devil, demons, possession, world hunger, poverty, Aliens, time travel, disease and every other problem in this world. There are always opposing viewpoints.
Maybe you should investigate dreams more before you come to conclusions that we can't dream about anything. Couldn't Alfred imagine Bruce as having wounds on his face prior to this death? I suppose you don't think people can dream the opposite.
Visit dream research websites to read more into dreams. If you believe my theories are inaccurate, then this proves you wrong since the poll going on the right side shows that not all people are aligned with your "Bruce wayne is alive, it is obvious" theory. More people vote that Alfred is having anything but a real moment than the cafe ending conveying realism.
if we go back to the prison, Bruce Wayne realizes that he must lose the rope to escape. He risks his life to preserve Gotham. Should we think Bruce will let an autopilot carry an atomic weapon outside of Gotham? He wouldn't risk the fate of Gotham on autopilot.
Batman installed the autopilot as you would your car brakes. Why use car brakes? Because you need a safety mechanism to stop your car. Why put fuel in a plane?
Bruce didn't know that he would be using autopilot to deposit the bomb. If Batman is so confident about autopilot, he would not waste valuable time trying to confiscate the remote detonator. He wouldn't reveal his identity to Gordon. He wouldn't deceive Selina that he has no autopilot. If he indicated he has autopilot, then he would have to use it. It shows just how much of a hero Bruce Wayne really is.
I'm grown up man. If I wasn't, I wouldn't answer every comment and invest time writing for free on many websites. The ending is not straightforward to convince he is alive.
In any case, I respect your comment, ideas, theories and viewpoints. I still disagree with you. Bruce Wayne is dead. There are enough clues to prove this. Bruce Wayne doesn't need to survive to preserve Batman's legacy. Batman is a symbol.
Apparently, you are only reading one of several interpretations on this website. There are others that provide good explanations to suggest Bruce Wayne is dead.
Thanks for contributing.
Actually, there is a good reason for him to search the remote control. If he didn't knew where the remote control was and then tried to take the bomb to the sea with the bat, Miranda Tate could just press the button and the whole city plus batman would disappear.
DeleteAlso, the bat, with 30 seconds (correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that it was about 30 seconds) could take the bomb out of the city and with 10 seconds left it disappeared in the horizon (Blake couldn't see it anymore). He could just drop the bomb in the last seconds in the water to minimize the explosion area and then try to survive flying alway. You could say that he "didn't knew the explosion area", but they could calculate the exact time the bomb would explode, so I think that he pretty much knew the explosion ratius.
-sorry for any mistakes, english isn't my main language-
Good analysis on the remote control. As for the Bat dropping the bomb in the water and speeding away, I think the impact would disintegrate him.
DeleteThe explosion radius and electronic malfunction associated with the traditional and electromagnetic impulse would cripple the Bat. As a result, the Bat could not outdistance the flash in time to avoid the blast.
Even though TDKR is a movie, we can definitely have a healthy debate on possible theories. I have no problem agreeing and or disagreeing with Batman fans.
Thanks for commenting.
dude, why wouldnt bruce rely on the autopilot to save gotham? because the autopilot could malfunction? thats like saying the bat itself could malfunction, or the rope carrying the bomb could break, or he could run out of fuel. its a mechanical error and has nothing to do with whether bruce flies the bat himself or not. its a moot point. the autopilot is just as reliable as the bat itself. you said the autopilot is like the brakes in your car. if you were about to crash your car would you use the breaks or would you jump out of the car because you wouldnt "risk" yourself "on the autopilot" in case it malfunctions.
ReplyDeleteim not hating on your theories, its just that you're arguing that the autopilot is "the weakest clue ever". the fact that you've had to say that and address it so many times clearly indicates that it's not, and that it's difficult to counter. thanks for your arguments though.
Batman revealed his identity to Gordon. He also told Selena there was no autopilot. If Bruce intended to survive, he would leave without interacting with these two people.
DeleteIn a sense, Bruce Wayne lacked confidence in the autopilot. The Bat is reliable, albeit this autopilot feature is tricky. Would Batman risk the fate of Gotham on an autopilot? We can ask that question a thousand times. Not every moviegoer will agree that Bruce trusted the autopilot 100%.
Bruce Wayne was shocked that Miranda double crossed him. This all leads to the moment of truth - the scene where Batman and Selena have a moment as well as his identity reveal to Gordon.
In my opinion, adding that scene of Batman in the cockpit leaves the ending open for interpretation. Why keep reinforcing the fact that Bruce Wayne survived with several scenes? The autopilot is a weak clue. I reiterate the autopilot to remind viewers there is more to the ending than meets the eye.
Thanks for the comment. I think it's cool to debate this Batman movie ending.
no, really, dude, i bought the dvd yesterday, watched it again with great pleasure. the fact that Wayne himself repaired the autopilot, and he himself said Selina (and the other ones around who were listening) that there was no autopilot, means exactly that the autopilot thing is important. he wanted to start a new life. when he jumped on the bat thing for the last flight he knew that he could have survived it.
Deletemoreover. just read the novelization that some guy (thanks to him) linked here. there's no doubt there. :)
moreover, you're taking it too seriously. your "thank you for your comment/whatever" remembers me my boss at work. he believe he's a genius, whatever you says him he just doesn't listen, replies a fake "thank you for your contribution", while in reality the only thing he wanted was another opportunity to repeat you his version of the story. come on.
batman is dead, long life to the batman!
Great article, exactly what I wanted to find.
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